The Brand Positioning Work Most Owners Skip, with Charles Lee

Kris: [00:00:00] Charles Lee, I am so excited to have you here on the show. Charles is the founder of Ideation. At its essence, he helps people get clear on what they want and then actually make that happen. Charles, tell us a little bit about you and what you do.

Charles: Great. Well, Kris, first of all, thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I've been looking forward to this. What we do as a firm is really focus on execution. The way we do that is we have basically two large buckets of services. One is around strategic clarity. So we work with leaders of all kinds of brands, from Fortune 10 companies all the way to kind of mom and pop entrepreneurs, around achieving clarity on some of their inklings of ideas, or maybe they already have a strategic plan, so we help them filter what that means for the real world. Our second bucket of services is around creative services. So we do everything from design, brand, marketing, content, brand activations, and some smart ways to build partnerships.

Kris: [00:01:00] And you mentioned that you've worked with some celebrities as well. Is that true? You're in the LA area, so you don't have to name names if you don't want to, but I'm just curious, because ultimately a celebrity is really just a personal brand. And if you're a coach or a consultant, you really are a personal brand. That's a great way to think about who you are and what you do. It's like your marketing, your messaging, your design. Everything needs to be in perfect alignment with who you are as a business owner. So let's just for fun talk about a scenario where you helped a celebrity.

Charles: Yeah, I think celebrities, and we've worked with professional athletes who are, I guess, celebrities as well, you can imagine they're approached by thousands of people wanting things from them. And I think in the midst of that it's really important, to your point, that they stay focused on who they are and who they aspire to be. So we do a lot of brand work around their own identity, really what kind of impact or legacy do they want to create in the world. [00:02:00] And then we always think in terms of branding in these three areas, and this is true of personal brands as well as company brands. One is, what's their differentiation? What makes them truly unique in the world that they're in. Secondly, how does what they're creating land with people who consume it, people who want to be connected with it, affiliated with it, and really hone in on the value creation they're providing the world. And third is what space can they own, so that when people think about a certain category of thought, they would think about that person, or if you're a company, the company. And so we work hard, and it's multilayered. They usually have multiple businesses and charitable influence going. So we help them organize everything from their personal brand all the way to helping them navigate all the opportunities that come their way.

Kris: And tell me what happens when a client comes to you and they've been executing, right? They've just been taking action, but they haven't taken the time to really [00:03:00] pause. Often it helps to have a thought partner involved in this process, but pause and get clear on who you are, to your point, your positioning. Your positioning just means what problem do you want to be known for. So, how can you own that problem? We want to get clear on all that stuff first, and I'll tell you that the majority of clients that come to me have been in that position where they've been executing many times for years and really doing a good job of executing, but it's not working because it's not born from that fertile soil, that foundational work of your positioning. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Charles: Yeah, I think you're right on. I think all of us get busy and it's bound to happen that we start drifting away from who we want to be or who we think we are. And that just naturally happens because you start getting pulled in multiple ways and your mental headspace starts to shrink, sometimes disappear. And so when people come to us, we really focus in on, [00:04:00] one, they probably can't work with us unless they're willing to create some headspace, because it's not going to be fruitful. We can always conjure up ideas, but those ideas have to be aligned to the person. And so this was kind of one of the reasons I just released another book, and it's called Design Your Good Life. And it's all about alignment to your sense of your own personhood, your values. And then from there, you can discover some direction and purpose, and then of course, when you have that direction, it's far easier to execute anyway. And then you could start to quickly prioritize which activities really benefit your journey versus distract you from the journey you're on. So that's how we kind of start. But we usually say, if you're not willing to put in the time or make time and create time, because this is valuable, then we're probably not the right partner for you.

Kris: Tell me tangibly what that actually looks like. If you're talking to a client and saying, you really need to carve out some time for [00:05:00] headspace, for introspection, for deep thinking, tangibly, what are you hoping that they're going to be doing and what are some ideas or ways they can create that?

Charles: Yeah. I think for us, we generally try to spend at least a couple of days with a client to kick off and force that time off. And it's usually hard with very busy people, but I think most, no matter how busy you are, you could find a half a day or a full day somewhere, and we walk them through our discovery process of a refocusing. Lots of different ways that you could refocus on your own personhood. Really, what is your vocational pursuit? What does success look like? What is it that you really want to create as a brand yourself? And so just walking them through a ton of various exercises, and it varies by client, because we don't think everybody should follow the same formula necessarily. There may be an overarching process, but we work really hard to understand the personality, the way that the client thinks about things. So I was a philosophy major in grad school, so I'm all about how they created the hierarchy of thinking in their own [00:06:00] minds. And that helps clarify the whys underneath that are unspoken at first.

Kris: Got it. Okay, I love that. Thank you. So we talked a little bit about people that execute without yet doing that foundational clarity work. What happens? What's the opposite of that? When somebody has a great idea and they're like, I want to do this, whether it's write a book or create an offer or build a new something, but they're feeling stuck. What's actually going on in that situation?

Charles: Yeah, there's probably layers. From the research that we've done and really thinking about how people come up with ideas, they're probably getting stuck at multiple fronts. I know a book years ago, The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

Kris: Oh yeah, love that book.

Charles: Great book, right. And he talks about the lizard brain, that some people have a good enough idea, but at the last minute [00:07:00] they come up with all of these irrational reasons as to why they can't do it. Or people are seeking too much perfection, or thinking that the idea has to be fully baked before you could launch it. And the reality is, the idea you start with is rarely the idea you end up with, and you won't even know the right questions to ask unless you start. And so it's kind of one of those things where I always say, look, if you feel like you're 70 percent there, wherever there is, I would say get going and test it out, kind of pressurize it. Because you have to move from a proof of concept of something to creating a proof of value for that idea, and that proof of value is something that you could prove to somebody, that whatever product or service you're creating is actually creating value in someone else's life. And so doing that hard work is really hard. And if not, you end up being sort of like what I think Zig Ziglar talked about. He said, you could either be a [00:08:00] wandering generality or a meaningful specific. But people who have a meaningful specific started something and they were moving and chose to refine what that meaningful specific is or was. And so I would just encourage people that getting stuck in part is often just self caused. We could create narratives in our heads as to what caused the blockage, but at the end, it's usually hypothetical blockage that's not based in the reality. It's just based in our fears and sometimes our insecurities, which everyone has. And those who can move forward despite having all of those feelings are the ones who will execute.

Kris: Right. I think a big part of the journey as an entrepreneur is owning that problem and really standing firm in that, and then putting that message out there, which requires visibility, it requires courage, it requires overriding that lizard brain that's saying visibility [00:09:00] could be dangerous, or these things happened in the past and this is why you should not become visible. So how do you walk your clients through that very diligent lizard brain that we all have?

Charles: Yeah, I say, I have them sometimes role play. I know some of your listeners are solopreneurs, coaches, advisors and such. And I would say, hey, take your own advice. If you're sitting down with a person who had the same skillset as you do, the same vision, the same type of passion around their ideas, what would you advise them to do as their coach? I would say nine out of ten times the people I ask that question to would say, I would tell them to go for it.

Kris: Yeah.

Charles: Right. And I'm like, hey, why don't you listen to your own values and advice you give others?

Kris: Yes.

Charles: And it just kind of clicks and they're like, you know, you're absolutely right. I'm not listening to the very advice I'm giving others. And they tend to move from that and say, look, just as much as you believe in others, I bet you if you told the same thing to a trusted confidant or a friend or advisor or mentor, they would tell you the same thing. So whatever this is that's blocking is really not based in reality. It's [00:10:00] based in some type of parallel universe where things don't work out, but you don't live in that universe. And it's just, hey, we need to take our own advice, take our own meds, and get moving. Because it's possible. And I've seen people just go. Most people that go don't have all the answers anyway. And that's where the beauty of an idea comes to life, where your life starts to feel vibrant because you're in maybe even positions that feel uncomfortable, environments that are unfamiliar, and being able to work through that and learn. Because the worst thing that could happen is you learn.

Kris: Right.

Charles: The best thing is you learn, plus you succeed. It's sort of like a win-win. And I'm not saying it doesn't cost you something to go after it. I get that. But I think good entrepreneurs are pretty calculated in the risk taking and are able to take some really good risk. But they know that it can happen in incremental steps. It doesn't need to happen all at once. You don't have to know everything at once in month one or quarter one. And it's [00:11:00] taking those bite-size actions and creating some accountability and transparency around that with your trust circle to keep moving the idea forward and then editing it as you go.

Kris: Right. I think that's a beautiful point. Number one, to step outside of your own self and be an advisor, give yourself the advice that you would give others, and that creates a little bit of distance between us and our lizard brain. And then the idea that really the idea cannot reach its highest potential or can't serve you in the greatest way if you don't first create the first draft, put it out there, and then hone and hone and hone. And I think as an entrepreneur, and I've been one now over 20 years, and I love it, I love it because I never stop learning and I also never stop [00:12:00] honing. Your website, your messaging, your offers. They get sharper and sharper every year. Sometimes you pivot, sometimes you just hone, but it's this continuous evolution that I think will continue until probably the day that I die.

Charles: Yeah, and that's life, right? Life is not all of these prepackaged moments. Life happens organically, and it happens in a way that's beautiful. Some things grow, and then you let some things die so that it can grow again. And I think that's okay. It's not about always being at your peak of everything. That's not realistic. And so just understanding that in this flow of life, you go with not only what life gives you, but what you can do with that moment, and do your best with what you know. And I think that's a powerful combination if you choose to just persevere and stay resilient.

Kris: [00:13:00] I can hear your philosophy background coming through. It's really beautiful. So you wrote this book about designing your life instead of just reacting to life. Let's talk more about that. That's really appealing to me. How does one design their life instead of just letting it happen to them?

Charles: Yeah, so the book's called Design Your Good Life, and I purposely chose the word design versus create or build, because I feel like, working in the creative space, that design infers some intentionality. It infers some type of challenge you're going to overcome. It implies that there is some conscious choice being made to solve a problem.

Kris: Right. And it's creative.

Charles: Yeah. So I'm not trying to dictate what a good life is for someone. I think that is highly dependent upon people's background. Everything from, were you raised in the east, were you raised in the west, your spiritual views, philosophical views, cultural view. All of these things shape our notion of good. But if you look at the research that's out there, people generally [00:14:00] land on two things. One is they want good relationships with their loved ones. That's one of the most fulfilling things human beings want. And second, I think human beings generally want to do good in the world at some level, local, or it might be global, but this idea of contributing back and this idea that you want to leave the world better than you found it to the extent possible. And so whatever that good life practically looks like for a person, I developed a visual framework that we actually tested out with 30 different readers from 30 different backgrounds to make sure that it's conducive for those who have means versus those who don't, those who come from different backgrounds. And so what I did was I divided it into three phases of building a good life. And in each phase is a particular mindset, skillset, and drive and outcome to work through. So I'll give you just the quick, abbreviated version. The first phase is called Spark. It's designed for those who feel like something's on the verge. They're not quite sure what, but they need a little bit of clarity. So in that [00:15:00] phase, the mindset is curiosity. There's a whole lot of science about the brain and curiosity, its mental benefits, its health benefits. Something about embracing autonomy and taking hold of your life through curiosity actually opens up doors. And there's a lot of interesting studies, and yet companies want curious people, but generally curiosity tends to take a nosedive six months in, in a new position, because it's not rewarded, for example. And people realize that it's easier to align themselves with what incentivizes their career growth versus staying curious. So there's a lot of factors there, but the skillset of ideating, driving towards clarity in that season, and hopefully landing on some outcome of purpose, at least directionally.

Kris: Right. And you can't be curious and fearful at the same time. Is that true? I've heard that.

Charles: Yeah, I mean, I guess fear is like one of those knee jerk reactions. You may learn something new and you're like, oh, that's kind of scary. So I suppose fear can creep in, but when you're curious, I think you're far more open to what could be. And so [00:16:00] the Spark phase walks the reader through that. And then we get to the Actualize phase, and that's all about implementation and execution. As I mentioned earlier, it's moving a concept from a proof of concept to a proof of value, so that when you enter rooms, you know exactly what you're bringing to the table, and that you could tell when people know what they're talking about versus people who are trying to fake it till they make it. So that level of confidence is a game changer for business owners and entrepreneurs. If your client senses that you genuinely, one, care about them, and two, know what you're talking about, sales becomes a lot easier. But the last phase is what I'm super excited about. It's called Influence, and it's all about curating your relationships, your resources, financial and other kinds of resources, your thought leadership, and moving from being the best in the world in something to being the best for the world in something. Is that kind of shift to making impact? And if you do that, I think the outcome will actually be some form of healthy legacy, and [00:17:00] people will say that you actually lived a good life. Because they see the impact of your work and how you make them feel, and what you're passionate about and what your relationships are like. And so that's the spirit of the book. And it's meant to, I have no aspiration of being anyone's guru. I just wanted a visual framework that can help walk with somebody, whatever season they're in, whichever element they're working through of life, to help them and encourage them to get a little bit closer to the kind of life they want.

Kris: Tell me, how have you navigated that framework and that journey in your own life?

Charles: Yeah, I immigrated to the states from Korea when I was five with my parents. And they were restaurant entrepreneurs and they were very fortunate in the sense they developed a couple of well-known franchises in the current restaurant market, both here in LA as well as in Korea. And they built a business here without knowing the language and such. And we had nothing, but I learned a whole lot about how to build something from nothing. So I can remember sitting with my [00:18:00] mother learning how she did the books, or how they marketed a new restaurant, how they treated their employees. And I just kind of caught those things over the years. And initially, I thought I was going to be a philosophy professor. Because it also came at a price, right? Running a business comes at a price. We didn't really have vacations. It really cost them their marriage. It did a lot of harm as much as benefit. And so I just ran the other way and said, hey, I'm going to be a professor. But as I was doing that, I still had opportunities and friends who always said I had a knack for building stuff and scaling it. Then when social media came along, and I'm kind of aging myself, but when social media came along, I was a super early adopter and started playing around with things like YouTube and all these social channels on how to scale concepts, how to connect people. And then I found myself doing everything from global flash mobs to, back then it was called guerrilla marketing. And brands took notice and top [00:19:00] marketers took notice. And they came and said, hey, you should continue to develop content. We want to hire you. And then that's how my career took off. And then for years, I would just contribute to the tribe I was building at the time. Fortunately, I had the fortune of having people like Seth Godin speak into my life and help me think about tribes more intentionally. And he said, Charles, it's not that hard to get your message out, but it's incredibly difficult to get people to care about what you're saying, and you want to create products that people care about. So for three years, I did about 15 conferences around the country before we launched the company officially, and just built thought leadership by convening people around the pain of execution. And then finally, by year two and three, when large brands were showing up to our events, they asked, so Charles, what do you do outside of these events? And that's when we actually launched Ideation more fully and said, hey, we have a team that can help you execute. So our first clients were big brands, and it's all been word of mouth, and I think we turn 17 later this year. So it's been quite the journey, a risky approach to [00:20:00] business growing. But realizing that I didn't come from anything, to know that my family built what they built, I was able to piggyback off of that. And now my family, our kids, as well as my wife and I, we are highly committed to projects of impact. So we've had the privilege of working with social enterprise brands, not-for-profit foundations, and now we get to build our own family foundation to invest. So it's been quite the journey. So this book is the fruit of me taking a step back, taking my own advice, and trying to think if there was a framework to help someone build the kind of life that could create impact in the world, what would that be? And so this was the product of that journey for the last two years.

Kris: Incredible. Well, I can't wait to read the book. What I love, or what popped out for me in hearing this story, is that you really followed that golden thread. You thought you were going to be a professor, but then people were coming to [00:21:00] you for certain things. And you essentially, people told you who you were, because you were so close to it, you didn't really even have awareness around it. And I think that's a question that we can ask ourselves. Like what do people come to us for? And what feels fun and easy for us to help others with.

Charles: Yeah, that's actually a similar question that my therapist at the time, because I was doing so many things, I was hardly sleeping, because I was so excited about 10 projects. Everything seemed to scale at the time. I'm like, there's no way I could keep this up. And she asked, what are you best in your world at? Not the whole world. And then I said, you know, I've always got feedback from, whether it's students or other people, that I could take complex thoughts and make it bite-size so you could work with it and scale it. And she's like, that's kind of like your superpower. And I thought, well, everybody else can do that. That was my thing. And the aha moment was, you know, those skills we take for granted [00:22:00] are probably our greatest skills, right? It's our superpower. And I think we discount it because it comes so naturally, it's so innate. But I think those are the things we ought to do. Those are the things that really the world needs us to do. And if you can align yourself with what you're just naturally really good at, and with some extra work and focus, you can make it that much better. I mean, that's where you could thrive.

Kris: That's so beautiful. It's really weird that we value the things that are effortful and harder, and then we just take for granted the things that come easily and we're like, what? You want to pay me for that?

Charles: Exactly.

Kris: Okay, so if somebody is listening right now and feeling just stuck, what's one thing that they can do to find clarity and really take action?

Charles: I found, in my own personal life and working with leaders, that often innovative ideas are the result of [00:23:00] two or more seemingly unrelated ideas intersecting. And so some practical things that people can do is, one, I do this myself, is every year I try to go to a conference outside of my space. And the reason I do that is because I want to hear how people are solving their own problems in their own context, and I want to meet and learn from new, interesting people in a completely different field. So I invite myself to go to a different type of event, or I'll read a book that's out of my space that will force me to pay attention and to try to figure out what's going on. That means that I probably don't know a lot of the terms, I don't know a lot of the research behind what they're talking about, but it gives me a good reason to go learn something. I'm fortunate because most of our clients come from all different types of industries, and our whole team has to learn so much, so quick. So I'm already learning a lot from different industries. But there's something about putting yourself in a different new environment and staying curious, and it goes back to that mindset. And if people do that and pay attention to what they're [00:24:00] hearing, and can really build up their skillset, like ideating, whether they use a design thinking process or some other process, to say, okay, I need to start paying attention to some of the themes I'm hearing, and some opportunities. And maybe you could apply something from a different field to your field. And I think that's where the real innovation comes. And if you look at the innovative companies, that's what they do. They will send people to certain cities if there's high activity in that city that's energizing, and they'll set up a post there, an office, to go learn from that entrepreneurial community, for example. So people have been doing this. And I would say even if you're a solopreneur, go to a local networking meeting, go to a local conference, go to a TEDx or something. Just get out of your normal everyday activity and put yourself in a new environment to hear some new ideas and then refine the ones you already have.

Kris: Incredible. I love that. [00:25:00] Charles, it has been so much fun having this conversation with you. Can you let everybody know where they can find you?

Charles: Yeah. I'll start with the book. The book is called Design Your Good Life. So you could just go to designyourgoodlife.com, or you could find me, just look for Charles Lee or Charles T. Lee and Ideation, and you should be able to find me on any channel, pretty much.

Kris: You're everywhere.

Charles: Yeah.

Kris: All right. Thanks again, Charles.

Charles: Thanks for having me.