How to Get More Clients Without Social Media

Kris: [00:00:00] Kate Kordsmeier, I am so happy to have you here. Kate, you started out as a journalist, and then you moved into blogging, and now you are... I'm gonna let you describe exactly what you are now, but- now you run your own badass business, and you do it all without social media, which is such a refreshing thing to hear these days. So tell us a little bit about you and what you do.

Kate: [00:00:28] Yeah. It's funny, I was just talk- my dad was just in town, and he was like, "You know, I still don't quite know how to describe what it is that you do." And I said, "Well, I, I really haven't changed it in, like, eight years." But, um, it is sort of this nebulous thing, I think, especially if you're, you know, outside the, the online business bubble.

Kris: [00:00:47] Yep.

Kate: [00:00:47] Um, so yeah. I, I, I think the simplest way to say it is I am a business coach. I help online business owners, which would be course creators, service providers, digital product sellers, um, grow their online businesses to be something profitable and sustainable without social media.

Kris: [00:01:09] I love it. And you initially were in journalism, right? Yeah. I wanna go back to,making that shift to do your own thing, and what made you get to that point?

Kate: [00:01:21] Well, it's interesting. So I, I went to journalism school for college and graduated, and a- when I was, a senior in college, I interned with a freelance journalist, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is the life. I'm gonna do this." but then of course all my friends were getting real jobs, and so I was like, "Oh, maybe I need a, a real job. I don't know about this freelance thing." And so I got a job as a copywriter at one of the biggest department stores in the country, and everyone was like, "Oh, so glamorous, I can't believe it," and it was horrible. I lasted four months, and then I decided to go out on my own. So I've been a solo business owner since I was 22 years old. I've never worked for anybody else in that time, and I've always, you know, paid my bills and put a roof over my head and all those things. so my journalism career really started as a freelancer. I never was on staff anywhere, but I wrote for over 150 different publications during that time. I've always been a go-getter, self-motivated type. Mm-hmm. So, um, it was the best way I can imagine spending my 20s. I was a food and travel writer. I got paid literally to go around the world and report back on, like, what is delicious and fun, and it was amazing.

Kris: [00:02:47] That sounds pretty dreamy.

Kate: [00:02:49] It was

Kris: [00:02:50] really

Kate: [00:02:50] dreamy. And it,

Kris: [00:02:50] it sounds like you're really wired for entrepreneurship- Yes ... and possibly able to find comfort in the r- in the risk of being self-employed and the lack of reliability of a paycheck. I know for me, I've always been wired that way. I was employed, for a while, in my 20s, and I remember l- having my own cubicle, and it was like, there was so much activity around my cubicle and I just, I can't get much done when-

Kate: [00:03:23] Yeah

Kris: [00:03:23] I'm distracted like that. And I remember going out the freeway that I would take every day, and thinking one morning, "A little bit of my soul is dying every time I make this trip."

Kate: [00:03:39] Yeah.

Kris: [00:03:39] And it was like, that was like the beginning of the shift for me, and then I kind of knew, like, I am, I am unemployable. I am meant to have the freedom that comes with- Having your own business, and I am comfortable with the ups and downs that that can bring as far as revenue goes. but I think, I think my biggest learning or my biggest area for growth is, like, how to do this work that I love and not take on too much or not do it all the time. And so I love- the way you bring that topic to the table and the work that you do around how to do, how do we do this work in 20 hours a week, or maybe even less? Mm-hmm. And so I'd like to hear more about that.

Kate: [00:04:33] Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I am an overachiever if there ever was one, so it is very hard for me to close the laptop, and even when I know, like, this is what's best for me and everyone involved. So I do struggle with it just from, like, personality type. And, you know, owning your own business, you're always on. You're never really not thinking about... I mean, it's rare if, like, a whole day goes by and I'm like, "I didn't think about work today." Right. Which is... Um, so yeah, that doesn't happen too often. But I will say, I have some real, physical limitations that cap my capacity no matter what. And so two of them are children, and I have a six and an eight-year-old now. And so, I mean, I guess technically I could, you know, never pay attention to them and just keep working. But they've gotta get bathed, into school, and dinner, fed, and, you know, to their soccer practice and all that stuff. And so really when they get home, it's like I can't, I can't keep working. And then I will say once I stop, like, I'm not usually one to, like, uh, "Okay, they're in bed. Let me get the laptop back out." I'm like, "Oh, no. Now I'm done tired and I don't have much left in me for anything." So that has honestly been helpful. And sometimes I talk to my friends who don't have kids, and I'm like, "How do you stop yourself?" Because I don't know that I would be as easily able to.

Kris: [00:05:57] Right.

Kate: [00:05:58] the other piece that I have is chronic illness. And so I have a lot. I always say I'm, like, a walking acronym. I have POTS, I've got MCAS, PCOS, uh, OCD. I've got a whole slew of things. And so even if I didn't have a family to take care of and, you know, all those things, I just don't have unlimited capacity and energy to work all day. and so that really can limit me as well. And I actually, even though there's challenges of course with those things, I'm really kind of grateful that I do have them in a way, because I think they force me to stop and take care of myself and focus on, you know, what's probably more important than just work, work, work.

Kris: [00:06:41] Totally. Yeah. I, I relate to so much of that. Like, prior to having... I have an eight-year-old boy right now named Jude. And when he was born,Everything, of course, changed in my world Right ... but the biggest thing that changed was that I couldn't give away my time a- and over-deliver and over-please to the level that I was comfortable with.

Kate: [00:07:08] Mm.

Kris: [00:07:08] and it just forced me to, time block, to, uh, basically force... It forced capacity on me- Yeah ... in a way that was really challenging, but also the best, the best gift ever. and it's- It's

Kate: [00:07:26] the both/and.

Kris: [00:07:27] It's the both/and, and eight years in It's, it's still that way. I mean, he re- he does actually kind of require a lot of attention, more than most eight-year- olds. and so I really can't work when he's around. Yeah. And it, and it's, it's good. It's a good thing. Yeah. Although, like, I, I have the urge to want to keep going with-

Kate: [00:07:51] Oh, yeah. I

Kris: [00:07:52] think, yeah ... and then at the e- at the end of the day, my, my brain is so tired from both the work and the parenting that I am just... I cannot-

Kate: [00:08:01] Yeah

Kris: [00:08:02] be productive at all. Sometimes I'm-

Kate: [00:08:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Kris: [00:08:04] Yeah.

Kate: [00:08:04] I, I, right. Sometimes I'm like, "I can't even watch TV." Like, I just have to go to bed at 8:30, and- Right ... that's it. Yeah ... so yeah. I, I think it is, it is the both, and my husband and I talk sometimes of, like, "Don't you kind of miss the days where you could, like, just get into a project and, like, just keep going and, like, not be interrupted, like, when you're just in the flow of something?" And I do get, you know, occasional time. my in-laws took my kids this summer for two weeks, and so we had two weeks of kid-free life.

Kris: [00:08:35] Mm-hmm.

Kate: [00:08:35] And I will say, like, I miss them, and it was in... I mean, it wasn't really hard to be away from them, but, you know, it was like, "Oh, I do miss them. I wanna see them." But my husband and I kept saying, like, "Man, life is easier." Like, it's just simpler. Yeah. And you're just... You don't realize, like, caring for other nervous systems and other beings, that just, you know, there's a lot of needs out there. So this is probably going off on a totally different tangent.

Kris: [00:09:03] No.

Kate: [00:09:03] Yeah.

Kris: [00:09:04] it's so true. pre-Jude, um, about 10:00 PM I'd get this, second wind- Yes ... of, energy, and I'd look around, "What, what project can I delve into right now from 10:00 PM- Mm ... to 1:00 AM?" And I'd clean out my closet or I'd do something creative. But that was kind of my natural rhythm, was that, midnight to 1:00 AM-

Kate: [00:09:26] Yeah

Kris: [00:09:27] bedtime. And now, you know, it's, it's so much earlier. I think fundamentally I'm a night, night owl, but definitely not as a parent. And I know that, in time, you know, he will grow up and then I'll, I'll have that freedom again.

Kate: [00:09:42] Yeah.

Kris: [00:09:42] But for now, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot.

Kate: [00:09:46] Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. And it's, uh, you know, similarly I find it hard to context switch between parenting and work, and so I feel like I need bigger chunks of time. I'm not great... and even aside from parenting, you know. I was just talking with a friend about this today. I do all of my calls on Tuesdays because- I, I can't context switch. Like, if I have, I've got an hour in between calls, nothing is getting done in that hour. It's not enough time for me to really get into something. I need... It takes me, you know, 20 minutes to just, get situated and, I just am, a slow start, I think. And so yeah, I, I batch everything on Tuesday. So Tuesdays are pretty exhausting because I'm, like, going, going, going. But then I have the rest of the week to just be like, "

Kris: [00:10:35] Ah." Totally.

Kate: [00:10:36] Yeah.

Kris: [00:10:36] That's brilliant. That is a really good strategy. One thing that I heard, and I have not implemented it yet, is to just block off an hour or more every day for whatever might come up. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I often will, my days are full, and I never weave in real margin for- Mm-hmm ... things that come up. Yeah ... so you touched on this a little bit, but, you really do work about a 20-hour workweek. is that true?

Kate: [00:11:06] Yeah. I would say, um, 20 to 25 hours is kind of my, my standard. I do take off a lot of time also. So sometimes I'm like- Well, I take off 12 weeks a year, so, you know, if we averaged it out, like, it's probably less than 20 to- but, you know, some weeks it's like, "Oh, I might have worked 30 hours this week," but that's because I was off for the next two weeks or something, so.

Kris: [00:11:32] Right.

Kate: [00:11:33] Yeah. Generally though, if we're just in a regular, time period, then yeah, I'm working about 20 to 25 hours.

Kris: [00:11:39] And how do you do that? how have you intentionally created a workload that can be contained within that amount?

Kate: [00:11:47] It's a good question. It's one of those things where you're like, "I don't know. I just do it. Let me think about this." I will say, you know, you said you're kind of naturally a night owl, and I always joke when people ask that, I'm like, "I'm not a night owl or, or an early bird." Like, I need a lot of sleep. I just like to be in bed a lot. And so, I... And I'm a very slow start, and I think a lot of that has to do with my POTS and some of my other chronic illnesses and stuff. But I wake up in the morning, my, my husband does drop off with the kids, so I don't even get up with them. He handles... You know, they come in and kiss me goodbye, and, you know, "See you later." Mm-hmm. And, and one of the things that I do is I kind of start my day in bed, which is probably counter to all the advice that's like, "Don't have your phone in your room." But because I need to, like, lay in bed for an hour before I actually get out of it- Mm ... I find, like, I start checking some emails. I don't usually reply to anything. I just kind of, like, see what's coming in. I do a morning briefing with Claude now, so I read through my morning briefing. I do some of my journal practices. I check in. You know, so, like, I'm kind of getting in my slow start for the day. and then that way when I do sit down at my desk a couple hours later, I'm like, "Okay, I know what I need to focus on. I've got my plan in place." Like I mentioned, I'm a huge time blocker, so I have days of the week that it's not always perfect, but I try to keep things as blocked as I can. So Tuesdays is my client delivery day. It's my call day. Sometimes I have some overflow on Thursdays of calls where it's like, "Oh, I just... This was a great opportunity. I couldn't pass it up. I'll do it on Thursday instead." but Mondays are my admin and ads days. So I come in, I only check my email, or I should say I only respond to emails once a week. So on Mondays I respond to my emails. I don't really respond to anything unless it's super urgent throughout the rest of the week.

Kris: [00:13:49] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kate: [00:13:49] so I clear out my inbox. I, you know, check in on, like, our school community and respond to some things there. and then I focus on our ads that we run, and so I do all my ads ourselves, uh, myself rather, and, so I do that on Mondays. Wednesdays is my writing day, so that's where I try to, like, any emails, blog posts, any content that needs to be written, I need very focused, quiet time, so I do that on Wednesday. And then Thursdays I have some call overflow some weeks, some weeks I don't, and then, it's like my tech playground day. So it's when I'm doing my systems, I'm looking at automations. I'm figuring what else can AI do for me? How else could I leverage these tools and... and then I don't work Fridays. So it sounds silly, but I think that morning briefing in bed and just sort of getting oriented for the day in a very slow way really helps me move faster when I do sit down to work. And then I never go like, "I don't know what to work on today." Like, I always have a very clear, "Well, it's, it's Wednesday, so I know I've got to write this email. I've got to do this." And, and I have a lot of things that are routine now, almost like- You know, I know every Wednesday is when I write my Sunday newsletter, and every... Like, certain things that just repeat over and over again. Yeah,

Kris: [00:15:10] like a

Kate: [00:15:10] rhythm.

Kris: [00:15:11] So,

Kate: [00:15:11] yeah, I just have... Right, exactly. That's the perfect word for it. I feel like I'm just in a rhythm. so yeah, that was a long-winded answer.

Kris: [00:15:18] I really like to get into the weeds of like- Yeah ... how are you doing this? So every day is really categorized as certain type of tasks, so You know what you're getting into, and you're not called off track at any given moment, hopefully. Yeah.

Kate: [00:15:36] Right. That's, that's the goal. That's the goal. Like I said, not always perfect. Yeah. Some weeks like, oh, I s- I did this on a different day, but you know, I think it helps to have sort of a, a base structure.

Kris: [00:15:46] Totally. I do a morning riff with Claude- Mm-hmm ... where I just kind of spitball here's what's top of mind, and I have a an overall business board, and anything that I riff will... will move over to that board. Oh, yeah. And that's been really helpful for me to just have this ever-evolving life business board, that I know, there's just so much going on in my brain and in most entrepreneurs' brains that it can be really overwhelming just to keep track of that. Yeah. And even if you have a lot on your plate, at least you're not having to keep track of it up in your head.

Kate: [00:16:29] Yeah, totally.

Kris: [00:16:30] Just to offload it there. so that's been huge. I wanna, I wanna ask you, about two things, and you can decide which one you wanna delve into first. Okay. So number one, I wanna learn more about how you quit social media.

Kate: [00:16:46] Mm-hmm.

Kris: [00:16:47] I'd love to get, to get into that. And you mentioned running ads, and so I wanna hear more about that, 'cause I think a lot of the people listening to the show aren't doing ads, are maybe thinking about doing ads. And I just find that, that it can be a delightful alternative to- Yeah having to constantly feed, the algorithm and the content hamster wheel.

Kate: [00:17:14] Yeah, exactly ...

Kris: [00:17:14] and if you have a little bit of money, you don't necessarily need a huge budget, right? Mm-hmm. You can just chip away at, at that. So-

Kate: [00:17:22] Yeah ...

Kris: [00:17:23] which path would you like to take? Yeah. Choose your own adventure.

Kate: [00:17:26] Well, they're very related, so I guess what I'll say to start is that I grew my business to multiple six figures without ads or social media. So you don't have to run ads if you're not on social. I have found that running ads has, you know, like pouring gasoline on a fire. Like, it has just made everything bigger and better, since doing that. But if you're h- listening to me and you think, "Oh, well she's not on social, but she runs ads," you... I didn't always do that, and you don't have to either. the second piece I'll say is that Meta, meaning of course Instagram and Facebook, Meta makes their money from advertisers, and Meta cares about growing Meta's bottom line. Meta does not care about growing my bottom line. And so if your organic reach on Meta, so if you're just on there posting your own stories and reels and whatever- Meta has no incentive to show that to your followers or other people, because they want you to advertise with them and to pay. And, like, this is the... This is not a secret. This is the business model that they have, you know, self-proclaimed.

Kris: [00:18:39] Right.

Kate: [00:18:39] And, so what we've seen is that, of course, they got us all hooked by having organic reach actually do something in the beginning, and each year it's dropped and, like, the percentage of people that see our content gets lower and lower. And in 2026, that number on Instagram is somewhere between 2 and 6% of your organic posts get seen by the people who chose to follow you, and on Facebook it's even worse. It's, like, 1 to 3%.

Kris: [00:19:11] Wow.

Kate: [00:19:12] So one of the things that I looked at was, like, well, said another way, that's a 98% failure rate for organic posting on social media, and I don't really know anything that I would do that says, "You should s- put all of your eggs in this basket. 98% chance you'll fail, but definitely do this."

Kris: [00:19:32] Give it a shot.

Kate: [00:19:33] Give it a shot. I'd be like, "No, thanks. I will find another way." Yeah. And so for years I found another way that had nothing to do with Meta platforms at all, and I can talk about some of those strategies that have worked really well for me, and some of which I s- I still do. And then last year I was like, you know what? I wonder what would happen if I ran some ads. And let me tell you, it is a very different experience than being on the platform. I still... I don't have the apps on my phone. I don't just not market on social, I don't use social at all. I don't scroll. I don't have the apps on my phone. I am not a consumer of anything social. I have no idea what's happening on those platforms. Since 2021, so almost six years now.

Kris: [00:20:17] Mm-hmm.

Kate: [00:20:17] And, I don't have to log in ever just because I'm running ads there. I log in to Ads Manager- Mm ... which is this totally separate platform. There's no feed. There's no anything social. You are literally just creating an ad campaign in this tool, and then I set it, and I walk away, and I check in a couple times a week. And a lot of times, I get to a point with the ad where I'm just running it, and I'm not changing anything, or I'm just letting it go, sometimes for months at a time. So compare that to organic, where you're having to post every single day, multiple times a day sometimes. Things disappear. The shelf life of social media is, like, one hour now.

Kris: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm.

Kate: [00:21:00] so it's a very different experience to run ads, and a lot of people will still say, like, "You say you're not on social, but you're running ads." I say, "Well, if I run an ad, a, a billboard in Times Square, am I in Times Square?" Like, it's just an avenue that my ad is displayed on. I don't have anything to do with the location of it. If I have a billboard on the side of a highway, it doesn't mean I'm stuck in traffic- ... driving that highway. That's just where my ad is displayed. Right. I have nothing to do with it.

Kris: [00:21:32] Right,

Kate: [00:21:33] Yeah. So that has been... Like I said, it has been very successful for me overall. I mean, of course, ads, there's a learning curve, and you gotta test and tweak a bunch of stuff. But I do find ads to be the fastest way to grow your email list. and it's way easier than doing it organically. So that's been my strategy, a bit, a part of my strategy for the last year and a half.

Kris: [00:21:58] Mm-hmm. And so when you're running ads, your call to action is for people to get your freebie, be, then become part of your list, and then you can nurture that lead via email.

Kate: [00:22:10] Yeah, generally. I u- I run usually two to three types of ads. One ad is freebie, where I'm running an ad to a freebie, and on- once you opt into that freebie, I always have a tripwire offer with a bump and an upsell, and that means that- A percentage of the people who opt into the freebie are going to buy something from me in the first 30 seconds that they've ever w- knew I existed. Mm-hmm. And those people go on to buy lots of other things, too. And so, yeah, I would never run just ads to a freebie with nothing to capture a buyer on the end. So, I do those. I do sometimes run retargeting ads, so I'll just like, if I'm doing some kind of live campaign to my email list, I'll also have ads that are retargeting my email list to just remind them, "Hey, this sale is going on. Come back." and then I've started exploring this year just running ads directly to a low-ticket sales page. So skipping the freebie altogether and seeing what happens. And I'm still testing and tweaking that, that campaign right now, but it's been a couple months and it's going okay.

Kris: [00:23:19] Yeah. And you had mentioned prior to doing ads, you'd tried a, a handful of other things that-

Kate: [00:23:25] Yeah

Kris: [00:23:26] that were working for you. What were those?

Kate: [00:23:29] So, and like I said, a lot of them are things I still do in tandem- Mm-hmm ... with ads. So one is guest podcasting, like I'm doing right now. I... They all essentially boil down to I borrow other people's audiences, and so I guest on other people's podcasts. I do a lot of JV partnerships, so that would be, like, where You invite your list to my webinar, and then, I come and I show up, and I'm just hosting this webinar just for your people, and then I'll sell them into my program, you know, at the end and through a funnel afterwards. So I've done that a lot this year. That's been... I'd say that and ads have been my two biggest ways that I've grown my email list and made sales. But guest podcasting, and then similarly bundles and summits, are another great way. I find bundles and summits, mostly summits I prefer, but to be a... the fastest, freest way to grow your email list. So-

Kris: [00:24:27] Right ...

Kate: [00:24:28] guest podcasting is great for brand awareness and getting, you know... And depending on the podcast, you know, you mentioned I was on Jenna Kutcher's podcast. Obviously she has a huge listenership that, you know, we got lots of sales even on that day, and the, and still do today get sales from, and leads from that episode that was over a year ago.

Kris: [00:24:48] Mm-hmm.

Kate: [00:24:49] But it isn't as quite as, like, "Oh, I was on this podcast, and I got 100 new subscribers." But a lot of times I will speak at a summit and immediately get a couple of hundred new subscribers, and so that's a really fast way to grow, too.

Kris: [00:25:04] Very cool. I love that.

Kate: [00:25:06] Yeah.

Kris: [00:25:06] Okay. And you talk about something called GEO, which I- Mm-hmm ... I know what it is, but I think a lot of people here might not, and I don't know much about it. I'm curious how that factors into your business, and What's your approach to that? How do, people do that?

Kate: [00:25:24] Yeah. Well, so SEO is kind of the original, search engine optimization. It's how do you create content that ranks on page one of Google so that people type in something into Google Search and your site comes up. And that was how I built my entire first business, was through SEO, and we grew to 250,000 page views a month of just people typing something into Google, and we show up, and a stranger finds us, and, you know, comes over to our site. so when I created Success with Soul, I definitely brought in what I knew about SEO to that. I've always had a blog. podcasting, YouTube, those are also search-first platforms, so any type of content like that, it's essentially like long-form content that people find by searching-

Kris: [00:26:13] Mm-hmm ...

Kate: [00:26:13] um, would be the, the traditional SEO. Once AI came out, now it's GEO, sometimes it's called AEO, somet- There's a lot of different acronyms, but it basically, it stands for generative engine optimization. In other words, being cited by AI tools. So similar to typing something into Google, except somebody's typing something into ChatGPT. So if you type in, "Who's the best coach for marketing without social media?" I, I ran this test recently on a bunch of incognito, signed out things. I'm the first name that comes up when you search for something like that. And so you wanna be, whatever your industry is, somebody types something in, you want to be recommended by these AI tools. Mm-hmm. So that's what GEO is, and it is definitely a part of my strategy. I teach SEO and GEO, like I said. I, I have some first-hand results from it. and it is very much the Wild West right now. I feel like there is a lot changing every single day with this. And so, I'm sure there are people that are much more expert in it than I am, but I think generally the concepts are still the same. It's creating helpful content that answers questions people have so that you become findable.

Kris: [00:27:33] And how do you make sure that your name comes up? Is it just you just do the long game, creating long-form content and having videos and podcasts that are trustworthy enough for AI to be able to find?

Kate: [00:27:50] Yeah, it's the... Honestly, the two are very similar, and the way that search engines rank content and decide who to show, it's not identical, but they look at a lot of the same factors. So with SEO, for example, one of the things they look at is, your EAT score, essentially. And EAT stands for expertise, authoritativeness and trustworthiness. And so, and now they've added a- another E to the front of that, which adds experience. Mm-hmm. Which is really good news for actual humans, because humans are the only ones that can have first-hand experience with something. An AI bot can write you an article about anything all day, but they can't say what, you know, a personal anecdote from it is. So one of the things to do is to make sure that your site... There's different ways to prove these sort- these expert- experience, expertise, authoritativeness and trustworthiness. Some of it is literally just having, like, a clear terms and conditions and privacy policy page on your website, and contact form or a way to reach the owner of the site. some of it's like credentials. If you are teaching people about nutrition, are you a nutritionist? You know, are you a registered dietician? Are you a doctor? if you're in the, they call it YMYL, which means your money, your life. If you're in one of those kind of niches where you're teaching people about their money, do you have... Are you a certified financial planner? Like, there's certain credentials. You don't have to have credentials. Your, your credential could be the experience. You could say, "I went from, you know, six figures in debt to becoming a self-made millionaire," and you're documenting that process. That's- another kind of experience. So there's lots of different little things that you do that can, that can build that up, and GEO is gonna look for a lot of those same things. If you're somebody who writes about 100 different topics on your website, it's really hard for Google or any robot to understand what you're actually an expert in. So a lot of the advice is to essentially, like, niche down. Like, don't write about all of the different ways, you know, all of the different topics out there just 'cause you have an interest or passion, but really, what's the thing that you are an authority on? and then likewise, another way to prove authoritativeness is to be cited by other people, showing that you are an authority on that. And so this is where guest podcasting comes into play. if I'm a guest on a bunch of people's podcasts talking about growing without social media, guess who Google and ChatGPT want to cite when people ask about doing that? Somebody who's been all over the place talking about it.

Kris: [00:30:35] Right. so yeah, those are some kind of, like, small examples of things you can do for both SEO and GEO. And if you want to be really intentional about it, is the first thing to do to tune up your website so it has all of that information on there, like your credentials and your podcast appearances? Yeah. Are, is, are they gonna go there first, or are they just gonna scour the web and find everything about you?

Kate: [00:31:04] So you don't have to have, like, a podcast guest appearance page, because it's not so much about you linking to those. It's about other sites linking to you. And so, I would want, "Okay, I was just on Kris's podcast. I hope on Kris's website there's a link back to my website," and that's what the crawlers will see, and it's almost like a vote of confidence from each of those sites saying, "Oh, Kris says she's an expert in this, and so does Jenna, and so does Amy Porterfield," and so, you know. And so- Right ... now it starts showing, "Oh, she really is expert," you know, "an authority on this topic." but I do think the lowest hanging fruit, yeah, is to clean up your website, to make it super clear who you are, what you do, what's your expertise and your authority. you know, there's- There's a balance in writing for the robots and writing for real humans, of course, but that's why sometimes you'll see on About pages, like if you look at my About page, I have my... at the top is, my human story, and then I have sort of the professional third party thing where it's like, "Kate Cordsmier graduated from the University of Georgia with a degree in journal-" you know, like, it, it has- Yeah ... more of those types of, of things, so it gets your credentials in there more. And yeah, there's a lot of, really low-hanging fruit for people to do there to just kind of get their websites cleaned up and ready to be-

Kris: [00:32:25] Right.

Kate: [00:32:26] Yeah.

Kris: [00:32:27] Right. I agree with you on that. you need your website to connect with another human, but there are all kinds of creative ways to tuck in information that the bots need and want, like FAQs or- Yes you know, having a section like you have on your About page a little bit lower on the page so that connection is made. They're probably not gonna keep scrolling. But,

Kate: [00:32:53] Yeah ...

Kris: [00:32:53] yeah, there's a lot of ways to kind of get your website optimized for the environment to be found, but also to truly connect in a human way to another potential client.

Kate: [00:33:06] Yeah, exactly. And again, a lot of it is just small tweaks, like, like you mentioned, the FAQs. Well, the way that AI bots like to read sites is more question/answer format, and so the way that humans often write is, like, there's a lot of preamble. We're, like, giving the backstory. We're going into things, and what, what GEO is telling us is don't really have as much of that. Like, each heading now should be a question, and underneath it you just get right into the answer in the first sentence, and then you give the backstory and the explanation.

Kris: [00:33:43] Mm.

Kate: [00:33:43] But instead of saying... you know. So now a blog post that I write might say, "Is it possible to grow your business without social media?" And the first sentence says, "Yes, it is, using SEO, GEO, and, you know, borrowing other people's audiences." And then I explain what the hell does that, any of that mean. Uh, in the past I might have written it as like, "Growing your list without social" as the heading, and then the first sentence would be like, "It took me five years to realize blah, blah, blah, and..." Right. Yeah.

Kris: [00:34:16] Right. So you call yourself the anti-guru. I want to hear what, what do you think is wrong with how business coaching usually is taught these days?

Kate: [00:34:31] Yeah. Well, I think we tend, as humans, just human nature, to put people we admire on pedestals and think they have everything figured out, they know all the answers, they've never made a mistake or failed in their lives. And social media definitely, amplified this with the curated highlight reel, and making us think this is the whole picture when it's just what they want you to see.

Kris: [00:34:59] Right.

Kate: [00:34:59] And so one of the reasons I call myself that is because I'm self-proclaimed. Like, I don't know, I'm just figuring it out alongside the rest of you. Like, I don't know, and, and just when I think I know, they change something and, you know, we just gotta stay adaptable. So part of it is like, "Don't put me on a pedestal," 'cause I'm just, I'm just human like you figuring it out, too. I don't have all the answers, and I don't know what's best for you. Like, only you know what's best for you. And I can share some best practices or, "Okay, this is, this is a strategy piece," but I think just feeling like... I think a lot of people ended up investing into some very expensive coaching programs thinking that this person was going to save them, and I'm like, "I don't want that pressure. I can't do that. Only you can save yourself, and you probably don't need saving in the first place," and Yeah, so I think a lot of it is just kind of trying to take myself off the pedestal and say, like, "You know what's best, and my job as a coach is to help you figure out that answer for you," because everything works. Every strategy works. Even social media can work, but does it work for you and your life and your preferences and personality and limitations and all of that?

Kris: [00:36:18] Hmm. I love that. One of the reasons I invited you to come on the show is because I just appreciate your no filter- ... honesty, tell it like it is, and I think it parlays perfectly with this anti-guru label that you've created. you just put it all out there, whether it's, you know, parenting challenges or entrepreneurial stuff, relationship stuff. Like, it's just really refreshing to hear what's really going on, the good, the bad, the ugly. And I'm curious, did it take you time to be able to become that vulnerable? And- I'm sure that people really respond to what you do because it is so truthful and honest, and just not very common with this highlight reel environment that we live in. Yeah. so I'm curious, Did, did you gradually get good at this over time with the blog? Yes. Or did you have to make a conscious decision like, I'm removing the veil and I'm just gonna be me"?

Kate: [00:37:33] Yeah. You know, it's such a good question, and I think that there is part of it that was just, my innate personality, is I just am a TMI kind of person. I'm just... I wanna talk about sex, money, and religion. I'm not here for the small talk. Like, I just... That's just who I am in a way. But that... It's one thing to do that with, friends, and another thing to, put it on the internet for anybody to see. I do think that I had to consciously decide this is who I want to be, and then do it and practice it o- over and over, and realize that I can survive it. And there's a line I think about all the time, which is to let people be wrong about you, and it's so hard because you want to say, "No, no, you must have misunderstood. Let me explain," you know? And I just have decided, eh, if they don't get it or if they think... I can't control what other people are gonna think or how they're gonna respond, so I find just, living in integrity with who I am and being as transparent and just authentic as I can be, it does... I, I do feel like it really resonates with people, and I get goosebumps even w- as you're saying it, even though people do tell me that all the time. It's very self-reinforcing, right? 'Cause you do it, and I get way more positive response than I do negative. I also feel like I'm not doing it on social, and so people have less filter on social media comments-

Kris: [00:39:14] Right

Kate: [00:39:14] than they do, responding to an email. and so I don't... I actually don't get a lot of haters, and when I do, it's so obviously about them that it's just like, "Okay, I'm not... I don't need to-" "... that."

Kris: [00:39:28] Not my problem.

Kate: [00:39:29] Yeah.

Kris: [00:39:30] Have you ever, overshared to a point where you regretted it or wished you had?

Kate: [00:39:37] Yeah. Oh. I'm sorry, the cat's here to talk to us, too. Not really. I will say I shared once something about my dad, and he read it, and he did not like that I had shared it. So I am now much more careful about... I can overshare about my own stuff, but not as much about... And, I mean- Yeah ... I disagreed with him, so I was like, "I think you're being too sensitive about this." or like, "You misunderstood what I was saying," but ultimately I was like, you know, it's not worth it. I don't need to, to do that. So that's really the only, the only time that I thought like, yeah... And, and I do w- sometimes I do try to think about if my kids, they, they don't really have the ability to consent to this right now. Like, how much of their story do I wanna share?

Kris: [00:40:27] Right.

Kate: [00:40:27] so I try to stick more to like what's my experience and to be cognizant of is this my story or is this somebody else's story?

Kris: [00:40:36] I love that filter.

Kate: [00:40:38] Yeah.

Kris: [00:40:39] Kate, it has been such a joy having you here today. I feel like we just, we got into it, and-

Kate: [00:40:45] Do you have a journalism background? 'Cause you ask some great questions.

Kris: [00:40:49] Oh, thank you. I don't. I don't. I'm just very curious.

Kate: [00:40:53] I love it.

Kris: [00:40:54] And this podcast allows me the opportunity to ask questions and get to learn and be around really cool people, so yeah.

Kate: [00:41:02] Yeah. I'm so honored you had me. Thank you.

Kris: [00:41:05] Yeah. I'm really delighted. Tell us where we can find you, and what would you like to share with the audience about maybe any freebie that you have?

Kate: [00:41:16] Sure. So technically you could find me on social. Yeah. I have a profile there, but it hasn't been updated in five years, so you'll, you'll see what my nine grid strategy looks like and how I kind of manage that presence if you wanna look me up there. But I would recommend going to successwithsoul.co. That's my website. And, on there we've got a couple freebies to choose from, but our most popular one is my four-day audio challenge, which is how to quit social media, and grow your business. So that's a great place for people to start. and I would love to have you in the challenge, and it's, it's free.

Kris: [00:41:53] Incredible. I've done it, and you should do it, too. So thank you- Oh, great. I

Kate: [00:41:56] love

Kris: [00:41:56] that ... so much,

Kate: [00:41:57] Kate.

Kris: [00:41:57] Yeah. Thank you for being here.

Kate: [00:42:00] Of course. Thank you.