Kris: Welcome to from Click to Client, where we transform a confusing message into a clear, compelling story that sells. I'm your host, Chris Jones, StoryBrand marketing expert. I'm here to help you attract more dream clients with the power of story.

welcome to the show, Nicole Cramer I am so thrilled to have you here. We had a conversation a few weeks ago and completely and totally hit it off, and I think our Venn diagram diagrams are very deep in overlap in the way that we work with our clients. So I am thrilled for you to be here today. 

Nicole: I am excited to be here.

Kris Thanks for having me. I know this is gonna be a fun conversation. 

Kris: So what is your, like, how do you answer the question? What do you do if somebody like happened upon you at a coffee shop and I said, Hey, what do you do? What? How would you answer that? 

Nicole: I usually like to build in some context and say, well, you know how sometimes you have a really good idea and [00:01:00] you wanna help people, and what that brings up is the opportunity to have conversations where you need to help somebody make a decision.

That's where I come in and I help people understand how to. Show up more powerfully and more influentially to the conversations that really drive their business. Mm-hmm. 

Kris: Awesome. And I love the use of the word conversation because a lot of what you do is really around how to sell more effectively, but it isn't technically selling.

It's through conversation that, that you do this work, right? 

Nicole: Yeah. 'cause I believe the sale is just the byproduct of the conversations and the relationship that lead up to that. I think that's just the natural next step. So to me, the sale happens before what we actually think the sale is. A lot of people think of the sale as the transaction.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: And I believe that the sale happens far before the transaction. I 

Speaker 5: totally agree. So tell us a little bit about how you [00:02:00] got here. Like what were you doing prior to this and what led you to entrepreneurship? 

Speaker 6: Well, I think like most people, uh, we can look back and see that it wasn't necessarily a straight line.

I was not designing this when I was 12 years old. Um, but I think that's the beauty of life, right? It's gonna take us in places that, um, maybe we wouldn't have planned for ourselves. And so I look back and I'm very grateful that I am where I am. Um, I started as a high school teacher and after going to college and playing basketball in college, I was like, okay, I'll be a teacher and I'll teach math 'cause I like numbers.

And I did that for 15 years. Mm-hmm. And there was a part of that competitive basketball player in me that just wanted some kind of, um, challenge, right? So after 15 years, it was great. And it was wonderful being a teacher. I wanted to challenge myself and I had a lot of friends that were in sales. It sounded like a game.

And I was like, sign me up. Like, if I win this game, I can win lots of money. Like that's what sales is. Okay. And I. [00:03:00] Very quickly, once I did take a, a job in sales, found myself feeling salesy, feeling pushy, feeling just uncomfortable with how I was being asked to do it or expected to do it. And I thought, there's gotta be a better way.

And if I were to go back to the very first sales job interview that I had, I was nervous. 'cause all I had on my resume was teacher. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: I was so worried that the guy interviewing me was gonna say that, that, Hey, you know, you're great, but you're just a teacher. You don't have experience. And it turns out he said exactly that.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I got 

Speaker 6: to the end of the interview, he said, listen, I'm pleasantly surprised you've done an a great job. You really knocked it outta the park. However, I'm gonna have a hard time hiring you over the 89 internal people who want this position. Your resume just says, teacher, you've never sold anything.

And in that moment I was like, crap. And what came through next changed everything about how I see sales. I said, well, I. I've been selling math to high school [00:04:00] teenagers for 15 years and nobody wanted to buy that. 

Speaker 5: I love it. I love it. Mic drop moment. Right. 

Speaker 6: For, for probably him and for me. Like, and, and little did I know in that moment it was the mic drop moment.

'cause I'm like, oh, I'm onto the next round. 'cause what he said, he goes, that's good. That's actually, that's a good point. That's good. Well you got a ride along with one of my guys and I was like, yeah. And so I'm thinking, yes, I got onto the next round. But what it really taught me and still teaches me and, and what I share all the time with, with my clients is that's what sales is.

It. It's, it's not the transaction, it's the relationship. It's the rapport that we're building. None of those kids were walking in with credit cards, paying me to teach them math. They, they wouldn't have. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: However, I had to help them make a decision to get what they ultimately wanted, which was freedom, which was, you know, something outside of high school that they had their site set on.

But in order to get there, they had to pass a math class. And so I believe that a salespeople really just professional mind maker, uppers, 

Speaker 5: uh, [00:05:00] uh, or professional mind maker, uppers, professional 

Speaker 6: mind maker uppers. 

Speaker 5: I think that's what we're Right, right. Yeah. 

Speaker 6: Right. Yeah. Really we're helping somebody make up their mind to do something that they want or need to do to get to where they really want to be.

And I think that's all we're really ever doing. We're not selling somebody something. We're not convincing them. We're helping them step into the belief that what they want is possible and helping them get there. 

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. And really overcoming those internal mindset blocks or beliefs that they have around why they, why, why they can't do this, like what's keeping them from doing that.

And. Overcoming those hurdles. Again, if it's the right thing for them to be doing, we just wanna hold their hand or gently put our hand on their back and be like, you can do this if you want. If you want the end result here, you can do this. 

Speaker 8: Right. 

Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah. That's really beautiful. And so [00:06:00] what happened when you showed up?

You got, you got hired, you went on the, you went on the ride with one of the seasoned sales professionals. You showed up on your first day of the job. And what was that environment like for you? 

Speaker 6: Well, I was very excited to be there because I'd taken a big step to do something. I switched careers after 15 years, that was a really big deal, and had really no idea if I was gonna be any good at it or not.

But was excited to try something new and challenge myself. So I walk in on day one and I sit down with this group of sales veterans who are, you know, my new sales team, and they were like, why did you leave teaching to come here? I put on my biggest Pollyanna smile and I said, because I wanna be number one in the nation.

And that definitely got me laughed outta the room. Like that was just ridiculous for me to walk in and say that. And the guy next to me goes, do you know how hard that is? And I said, no. Have you ever done it? And he said, [00:07:00] no. He said, it's a really big deal. And I was like, okay, well, where there's a will, there's a way.

And so I felt a little silly in that moment 'cause I could feel everybody looking at me like, okay. It's like you walk into the, your first day of a script read as an actor and you're like, I'm gonna win an Oscar for this role. Like it's 

Speaker 5: kind of kind of so audacious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or back to basketball, it's like being great, A great high school athlete in basketball and being, being like, I'm gonna make it to the NBA.

I mean that's, it's a long shot, right? It's kind of for 

Speaker 6: sure. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure. So, um, so yeah, it was definitely, um, what I tell people is like, I think I was just oblivious enough to not know how hard it should be. And so of course it was, it was hard and it was challenging and there were tears and there were things that, you know, like, so I, I did, I did become number one.

However, I just think that it was on my side that I didn't know how hard it would be. Mm-hmm. If that makes 

Speaker 5: [00:08:00] sense. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. I feel that way around parenting. Like, I have a 7-year-old boy, and I, in hindsight, I'm like, had I known how difficult this is gonna be, I don't know if I would've done it, but I'm wouldn't change it for the world.

Glad I did it. Really glad I didn't know how hard it was gonna be. 

Speaker 6: Yeah. 

Speaker 5: So, 

Speaker 6: um, that's, that's a great point. It's like if looking back, had I known it was gonna be that hard, I don't think that that would've been my goal. I don't think I would've been excited about it. I at all. Right. 

Speaker 5: Right, right. And so what ha, what happened after that?

Like how did you make it to number one? 

Speaker 6: So, you know, it, it's interesting because it was my goal. I said I wanted to be number one in the nation. And to be honest, it was like my goal because I knew people, like, one of them was a guy that I had dated that was number one in the nation, in his company. That's all I knew is that it sounded cool.

'cause I knew people that had done it in their companies. Right. I had no idea how to do it, how to make it happen. Like we said, how hard it would be. Um, [00:09:00] I really got specific and focused on where were the opportunity. I mean, at first it was like, let me just get in the mix. Let me just get messy with it.

Let me just start trying some things out. 

Speaker 8: Yeah. And then 

Speaker 6: as I got a little bit more specific about where I was gonna be able to best serve my customers, I saw opportunities that if I focused on those, that those were gonna be like. Higher opportunity, um, better chances for me. And so I just got really specific on where I wanted to focus.

Even though I worked for a company and I had a certain target and a certain goal, I knew the type of customer that I really wanted to go after. And the more I got focused on that, um, the more those opportunities started appearing. And, um, before I knew it, I had landed a very, very huge customer. Mm-hmm.

And, um, I started the entire fiscal year off as the number one salesperson. So like from day one, I had such a giant, um, account that that was where I started the year. So it was pretty, it was pretty incredible. And then that definitely built in the opportunity for me to see [00:10:00] and do more of that same. You know, that same type of work with other customers, and then I became known for that thing.

Mm-hmm. And more customers then were coming to me saying, Hey, we want that same thing. And so I think this is just a perfect example of like in sales, when we get really specific about what we're good at and what we help people best with. Call it nicheing down calling, whatever you want. Mm-hmm. Um, we become known for that.

Mm-hmm. And that becomes a lot easier for people to understand why they wanna work with us and what can happen when they do. 

Speaker 5: And once you landed that first gig, then you have proof that you've done this before, that you can then parlay that into future conversations. So I love that you talk about getting clear on really who you wanted to help.

Right. You got really clear on that first, and then that allowed you to uncover opportunities on how you can do the this differently. So how did, how did you get clear on who that person was that you really wanted to hone in on? 

Speaker 6: Such a good [00:11:00] question because I didn't know that that was even a thing. This was long before I'd even become or thought about becoming an entrepreneur.

And so I know now as an entrepreneur, the two most important questions we can ask ourselves before we sell anything, who do you help and what do you, what problem do you solve? Right. That like, that has to be answered. And if you don't know that, you're not gonna be making sales. Right. I was still so new that, fortunately I had the veteran sales team that, um, one of them came into one of our sales meetings once with an opportunity that I didn't know was available to us, and it was a really lucrative opportunity.

And so he shared, he had gotten this new account that had this extra feature to it, and so that's how I got super specific, because he made, so our goal was $10,000 a month in new sales, or 12,000 maybe. Right. Right around there. Anyways, point being, he walked into our sales meeting with one account. That was worth $10,000 and here's me trying to get these accounts that are like a thousand dollars and $2,000.

Right? And he walks in and he's like, yeah, I got this account and they paid. [00:12:00] And I was like, what is that account? And what did you do? And what, what kind of service did you deliver? Right. And when I realized that I could get one account that would cover my entire monthly target, I was like, okay, where can I find more of those?

So that's really what stood out to me. It was like, how can I work harder, not smarter? Right. That was really it. It wasn't as specific as who do I wanna help and what problem do I solve? Then it became that. Then it was like, oh, I wanna help the people who need that service. Right. And the problem I solve is convenience, frustration, overwhelm, whatever it is that they're dealing with.

Mm-hmm. That requires them to, to, to need that. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 8: So 

Speaker 6: that's really what it was. Somebody showed me an example and I went, wait, I can work smarter, not harder if I do that. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 5: Donald Miller tells told me a story about when he started doing public speaking and he would charge five grand for every appearance.

Every gig that he got was five grand. And then he pitched, one time he pitched a [00:13:00] company 10 grand and they said, yeah, sure, 10 grand. Perfect. And then he kind of came back to his office and he was like, well, how about I only focus on clients that wanna pay 10 grand? I can, I can get to my goal of a hundred thousand a year.

With only 10 clients. And prior to that, you know, it was gonna take him 20 sales per year to get to his goal. So it's just such a, a, a wonderful lesson. And like you said, working smarter, not harder, and really like, how can we get to the numbers that we wanna get with actually less effort. So bigger clients.

And then once you identified like, okay, I wanna work with clients, larger ticket clients. Mm-hmm. Um, did you uncover then, did, did they have unique or different challenges that the lower ticket clients didn't have? [00:14:00] 

Speaker 6: For sure. I, it was definitely a different type of client altogether. Um, I was working in LA at a time when Silicon Valley, all of the tech companies from up north in San Francisco and Silicon Valley.

We're migrating and moving down to LA and establishing, uh, a, a location there, and it was called Silicon Beach. And so I saw that as my opportunity because I knew that those customers needed the thing that I was really good at, which basically what I was really good at and what I, you know, became the expert in, was grab and go services for break rooms.

Mm. I sold coffee to offices, which meant I sold, you know, coffee services. We put in the coffee brewer, we delivered the coffee every single month or every week or whatever. But when these customers needed extra things besides just coffee and essentials 

Speaker 8: mm-hmm. Snacks 

Speaker 6: and food, that's the higher ticket item.

And when I saw all of these companies migrating down, I was like, [00:15:00] okay. They all want what I know they have up in San Francisco. And that was the thing that I became the expert in, became known for, and not just known for the actual service of Grab and go, but my ability. So I established partnerships with vendors who could bring in the types of snacks, the healthy snacks, the specific snacks that I knew my higher ticket customers were wanting and were looking for.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. And 

Speaker 6: so I made my job even easier by again, conversations and establishing the right relationships with the right people. Because it wasn't just me, it was never just me. It's never just any of us. Right, right. It's always other people involved that are helping us do what we're doing. What are those relationships?

How can we strengthen those so that our job becomes even easier? So I became really close with all of my coffee vendors. I became close with the, you know, the food vendors that could help me pull in the right products. And then I was the person that was really valuable to the people who wanted those types of things in their break room, because I could pull all the strings, make it happen for them, and they didn't have to lift a finger.

Speaker 5: Right. Right. So you reduce the time, the [00:16:00] legwork, the overwhelm, the, just all the coordination of that, which is such a gift to them. Tell me, how did you communicate to them the benefit of that? So beyond just the headache of coordinating all that, like the, the downstream benefit, meaning what else were they excited about and, and how did you communicate to that, that, to them?

So like, for example, was it happier employees? What, what were some of the other things that you shared? Like, this is, this is what's possible for you? 

Speaker 6: For sure. I mean, happier employees, higher retention, like the, the, the, the benefits that we could talk to were great. Mm-hmm. What I did and what I would encourage anybody to do in a sales conversation.

Is find out why it's not okay for them to stay where they are, to keep doing what they're doing. Like sure. Everybody wants, you know, a way to attract top employees. So like if you're Facebook and you're coming [00:17:00] down from Silicon Valley to Silicon Beach, you're establishing, you know, a, a a, a location there.

You want to hire people that are the best of the best. Right. How do you incentivize them with different bonuses and benefits that you want? And, and the break room could be a big part of that. So having a fully stocked break room, having the best coffee. Yes. And what happens if you don't get that top talent?

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: What happens if you keep serving the same coffee that you're serving? 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: Knowing you have all of these other roles and responsibilities on a daily basis, how does it feel knowing that this extra piece of coffee and break room services also falls into your responsibilities? And that means that you don't have time to get everything else done.

So it's like, let's destroy the option of no. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: Before we try to start moving somebody into something that may very well just look aspirational to them. It looks like a nice to have. If we haven't first helped them realize that they don't wanna be where they are. And so what I would do with the person that I was meeting with quite often, they were not the top decision maker.

They were the person that was a part of the decision, but they happened to [00:18:00] be the person that was bearing the brunt of the repercussions 

Speaker 7: of 

Speaker 6: not making the decision. So I was able to help them see, and, and basically build an inside sales person, if you will. I was able to help them see the benefit of what if you don't do this differently?

What if you don't bring in these snacks? What if you aren't able to retain top employees? What if you aren't able to attract the top talent that you want? And when we, when we were able to see the consequences very clearly to not making the decision, now they have motivation to make the decision. Not just because it looks nice, but because being where they are, they've realized this isn't gonna work.

We need top talent. We need to keep the people that are, that are top on our team, right? We want people that. Uh, you know, converge in the break room and get to know each other. We wanna establish culture. That feels really good. Why? Because we know what it feels like when culture doesn't feel good, when we don't have good coffee, when we don't have happy employees, right?

So we've got a visit there before we try to take them anywhere else that looks good. 

Speaker 5: One of the most important parts of the StoryBrand framework. [00:19:00] Is stakes, right? What is gonna happen if you do nothing? If you don't do anything, you're gonna keep getting the same results that you want. And this is kind of, stakes are really the tension between success that's possible and the failure that's also possible.

Stakes are the reason. When we go into a movie, we sit down and we don't look at our phone for 90 minutes. We are fully engaged because we wanna find out if the hero is gonna succeed or if they're gonna fail. And whether you, whether it's on your website or in a sales conversation, we, we are likely to click on the call to action or say yes on a sales call.

If we know it's going to bring us success, we're even more likely to say yes if we know it's gonna help us avoid failure. And you've just totally hit the nail on the head with that one. You're really. Gently, I, I really [00:20:00] do think of this as you are the guide, right? And you are gently putting your hand on their back.

You're not being doomsday, you're not, you know, being negative, but you're gently putting your hand on, on their back and saying, if you don't do anything, you know, failure is possible and here's what that looks like and here's how I can help you avoid that failure. Does, does that resonate with you? 

Speaker 6: Yep.

Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, I think that's, if we don't ask then who are we really? Do we really care about helping people like they have the right to refuse, right? And it's not personal, by the way. We've gotta get over that and I'll raise my hand. I'm there, I. Definitely taken it personal. I don't do this work because I've always figured it out and been perfect at it.

I do this work because I've been all over the place and I've learned a lot, and I know that objections or any kind of rejection, it's not personal. But if we don't actually go to that deeper level with that person, if we don't [00:21:00] visit that opportunity to see what the consequences might be to them not making a decision, then are we really serving them?

Are we really helping them? Because what happens a lot of times is people are like, well, I don't feel comfortable doing that. Then who are you making that about? Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: You're making it about you and your discomfort, but if you took the time and put the focus and the intention into building this skillset to know how to show up to a sales conversation, to help somebody navigate through some of those challenges, to help them see, Hey, what are the consequences?

What are the stakes here? If you don't make this decision, what are the repercussions? And if you still wanna stay where you are, once we visited the repercussions, then that's probably the right decision for you. If you want some support with that and you wanna take a look at how I could help you with that, then we could talk about that too.

I'm not mad either way. Nobody's right or wrong either way. But if we don't take them down that path and help them see what might happen, if they don't make the decision, then we're not really serving them. 

Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, that is so true. Mike. Drop moment [00:22:00] right there. That's so beautiful. And I think as service providers, as coaches, as self-employed people, we're doing this work because we have the heart to help, we genuinely want to help.

And part of really serving them and showing up with a big heart is really walking down, walking them down this path. So tell me, how is your approach different? Like how do you approach sales? I wanna hear like a, a comparison be between traditional sales tactics and your approach. 

Speaker 6: So many thoughts. I, you know, like I said, when I entered corporate, the, the way that people have been selling, the way that people have been selling for hundreds of years, it just didn't feel aligned to me.

It felt very pushy. And I believe that it's about being pulley inviting people. Mm-hmm. And inviting them to take the next step. [00:23:00] And my approach has roots in sales psychology. It has a lot of roots in human connection and self-leadership. Self-leadership is a big piece of what I teach with sales, because we can only take people as far as we've gone ourselves.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: And so curiosity is a big part of the sales process, and that starts with us being curious with ourselves. 

Speaker 8: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: So my approach comes from, yes, self-leadership and sales psychology and human connection, but also I don't believe people should be selling things. I believe that they should be helping people make a buying decision.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. That's such a beautiful reframe. Um, tell, tell me before we keep going. Tell me, tell me about self-leadership. What does that even mean? 

Speaker 6: So there's a saying that a lot of people repeat in sales and it's control the controllables. Mm-hmm. There's not much in the sales process that is actually in our control.

The only thing that is [00:24:00] ultimately in our control in all of life, not just in the sales process mm-hmm. Is ourselves. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: So I believe self-leadership has everything to do with sales because who you are as a salesperson has everything to do with your intentions and your focus and the skills that you choose to build, to be a better salesperson, to be a better guide for that person who needs your help because nobody's in a conversation, regardless of what you sell.

Whether you're real estate agent, financial advisor, coach, consultant, keynote speaker, I don't care. Across the board, whatever you sell, whatever you do, somebody believes that their life will be better. On the other side of the thing that you do, our ability to help someone navigate the decision to say yes is on us.

That's on us to understand how to show up confidently and competently to those important conversations where somebody is in a position to make a decision and the worst thing we could ever do is leave them where they are. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. [00:25:00] 

Speaker 6: A lot of people think no is the enemy of yes, no, and yes are both closing the deal.

Those are both good things. It's maybe land that people get stuck in and if we as salespeople are willing to leave people in maybe land, then are we really the people we claim to be, are we really there to help someone? Because to me, helping someone get clarity in their decision is really our goal. Like I said at the beginning, we are professional mind maker uppers, and sometimes that answer is yes, and sometimes that answer is no.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: But if we leave somebody in maybe land, we've left them the same place they were when the conversation started. So I believe a yes and a no are equally as good. A yes probably feels a lot better to the business owner, but a no should as well. Because if we help somebody get to a no and that's their truth, then that was the right answer.

Mm-hmm. If we help somebody get to a yes and that is their truth, then that's the right answer. If we help somebody get to a yes, and they meant [00:26:00] no, eh, if we help somebody get to a no and they really wanted to say yes, eh, so to me it's about how do we stay outta maybe land and how do we help someone arrive at the thing that is truest for them?

The the decision of clarity that is truest for them. 

Speaker 5: You touched on a word that I love, which is confidence. And I know with my clients getting their story right, finding the words to really tell their most compelling story is of course very powerful to the pe, the people that they wanna reach. But what I have found this strategic invisible byproduct of the, of this work is that they're reminded of how powerful they are at solving a particular problem.

And when you really own that and you have the words, and you have on a cellular level, the knowledge around the problem that you solve and how much it matters to [00:27:00] other people, you're able to show up to these calls with such a different energy. Have you noticed that too with your, your clients 

Speaker 6: confidence sells?

Absolutely. And, and, and I could even tie that back into the self-leadership piece because if we are not showing up as our fullest, highest, best expression of ourselves, how could we possibly lead someone else to that? And that includes looking at holistically who we are and how we show up in this world.

And when I say holistically, yes, that means what are you eating? What are you fueling your body with? How are you moving your body? How are you taking care of your physical vessel so that you can show up in all areas of your life as the best version of you? And this isn't about perfection. This isn't about, you know, being like the best of the, it's literally about how am I on a daily basis leading myself so that on any given day I am making the best decisions for myself.

Because if I can't make the best decisions for myself, how can I help somebody else make the best decisions for themselves? Ugh. I love confidence is a big piece of that. And, and, and when we [00:28:00] are taking good care of ourselves, we are feeling more confident. Mm-hmm. And that confidence is truly what somebody sees.

And here's, here's the thing, and I know you know this, Kris People see a better version of themselves in us, in how we show up for them, in who we are for them. And they want to buy a better version of themselves, and I don't care, whatever it is that you sell, again, you could be a real estate agent. You are helping somebody move towards a dream or some realization of a life that they desire and they see you as being the vessel or the guide in helping them get there.

So we know at all times that our role is to help somebody see what's possible for them by showing up in the best expression of ourselves. 

Speaker 5: Oh wow. That's, that's really beautiful. Because, you know, so often we talk about the transformation that we can provide for them, like they want, they do want to become whatever that aspirational identity is that they're looking for, and they know we can solve a problem that [00:29:00] will help them get to that point.

But I think sometimes we forget that we are the physical. Representation of that potential and that possibility. And, and it's such a, it's such a powerful point. So let's get down to you and your process and your, the way you teach your clients to do this work. Let break it down for us, 

Speaker 6: we focus on conversations and because I believe everything that anybody wants is on the other side of a conversation.

Anything we want and desire in life, conversations will get us there. And so from a sales perspective, I believe that's where the most important pieces lie in us creating the outcomes that we want is showing up more powerfully and confidently to the conversations that matter. The other thing that I really focus on, and this kind of could, you know, be another piece to the question you asked earlier about like, what's my, what's my, [00:30:00] um, process I like to tell people or how am I different?

Slow, slow it down. Stop trying to get married on the first date. Too many people are going in to their conversations with one and only one outcome in mind. Make the sale that makes it black and white. Right or wrong, good or bad. It feels so, um, like a challenge that you're setting yourself up that that isn't fair to you or the other person.

So I think going in and always trying to just get married on the first date is going to have us walk away and the other person walk away not really feeling very good because we don't really like to show up on first dates and, you know, commit to the rest of our life to somebody that we're sitting in front of.

Have a glass of wine, have some appetizers, slow it down. And what it actually does is it speeds up the process because when we slow it down, we don't come across as salesy. We come across as curious. We come across as caring about the other [00:31:00] person, and we come across as somebody that they can trust. And when they start to feel safe in our presence, when they start to feel like we have their best interest in mind, when they start to feel like we understand them, then it's a lot more likely that they're going to want to take steps forward with us.

The only way we can do that is to slow it down because trust isn't built overnight. It's built over time. Mm-hmm. So I think that's a big piece of our approach to conversations. It has to be how do we slow it down so that what we're actually doing is guiding somebody else through making the decision.

We're guiding them through the process. We are showing up as a professional mind maker, upper, um, and if we were getting to the nitty gritty of it, like one of the things that I have on my clients do is we've got conversations every single day that we need to be starting so that we're always moving people through our ecosystem.

Like, we don't wanna be in a place where it's feast or famine, where we've got some deals and then we've got nothing going on. We wanna always be in conversations. And the real goal is not to put periods and exclamation points at the end of the sentences. [00:32:00] It's how do we put commas and dashes so that those conversations are continuing?

Because not everybody's gonna be in a position to buy. There are now buyers, there are soon buyers, and there are later buyers. And if we are always only trying to get married on the first date, those are those now buyers. We're missing out on the soon buyers and the later buyers. Mm-hmm. And when it is time for them to make a decision to buy, don't we still wanna be front of mind?

Don't we wanna be the person that they're still gonna turn to? So we've gotta stop always trying to go after the sale. I believe making the customer is more valuable than making the sale. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: And, and, and all I mean by that is once you get a customer. They're a customer who will repeatedly buy from you versus doing what it takes to get a sale.

And then maybe that person never revisits you again, or never buys anything additionally from you again. So it's really about how do we slow it down? How do we show the other person that we know them, how do we build the rapport so that what we're actually doing is building a [00:33:00] relationship with somebody who sees value in what we can do, because we've helped them recognize what they want and how they wanna do it.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. So on a tangible level, how do you, how do you slow things down? Like if, if someone's listening today and they're like, okay, I've, I'm on board, like I wanna slow things down. How do I do that? 

Speaker 6: Can you think of a, a specific example? 'cause I think that usually helps, let's say that somebody is in a sales conversation and, well, I'll give an example.

I had a company recently who wanted to hire me to do a 12 month sales training program. And sure. It would've been cool to be like, Hey, let's, let's land that deal right now. Like, let's, let's capture the whole thing. But that's a big commitment. That's a big chunk. And how do I know that I wanna be working with them for 12 months?

Right? How do they know they wanna be working with me for 12 months? And [00:34:00] so I thought, okay, what's a way that I could design a meaningful next step for us to take together? 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: It will give some immediate value that will allow me to get to know them better, them to get to know me better. We can establish some buy-in and it will still deliver some quick wins because anything I present is still gonna be valuable.

And so what I presented is a, my version of, let's slow this down and let's start with this. Let's do this piece. Then that will give us further direction on what's going to make sense moving forward and make sure that we all have buy-in from the key stakeholders, that we all feel like this is the right fit moving forward for a longer term engagement that was an easier yes for them.

It builds the foundation for any future work that we do and allows both of us to say, Hey, is this right for us? Is this right to keep moving forward? And if, you know, we were to look at it from like, let's say a coach perspective. 'cause I work with a lot of coaches. [00:35:00] If you've got somebody, let's say you have a signature program and you've got somebody who's interested in your six month signature program and they're like, okay, um, I really wanna do this, you know, I need to talk to my husband.

Or you know, it feels like a big commitment for six months. And well what if you had something that was a little bit more bite-size that would give them an experience of trying before they buy, if you will. Now, obviously they can, you know, it's still a paid product, they're gonna pay you for it. But maybe you've got, instead of the six month signature program, a 90 minute intensive.

You can dial it down to one specific thing that you can work on in those 90 minutes together, you can deliver some quick wins because of course you can, in 90 minutes, if you're super focused on something, you're gonna help them create a quick win, create some feeling of value, and then they will come back for more if they really felt connected and they really got the value from it.

Mm-hmm. And you can do all kinds of, I mean, we, we don't wanna get too tactical here, but you could do all kinds of different things to incentivize them to keep moving. But, and, and listen, if somebody's ready to take the six month jump, then do it. I'm not, I'm not saying don't. Right. If it feels like the [00:36:00] right fit and it's the right time for everybody, but I believe slowing things down benefits everybody.

And what it actually does is it speeds things up because it makes people feel like you really have their back. You really care about them. You're not just trying to sell them something just to make a sale. You're like, let's just take it slow. Like, we're good. If you need more after that, then we'll talk about what more looks like.

If this is enough for you right now, then great. Then you got what you needed. And, and everybody's happy. And I think that that's what it is. It's not about selling them what we want. It's selling them what is best in the moment and will help continue that relationship so that they can get what they need.

And if it's longer term, then you'll talk about longer term and what that looks like. 

Speaker 5: Right? Right. It really does always come back to the metaphor of dating, doesn't it? Like you, you go on one date, then you're like, okay, let's go on another date. Yes. And then eventually you're like, let's not date anybody else.

Let's just date each other. Yes. And, and I think it's such a, um, such a kind way to kind [00:37:00] of show up with that helpful heart. You genuine, genuinely want to help. And so you don't have to dive into the big, big ticket item yet. Let's make everyone feel safe. And you're right, trust is built over time. So if you can help them in that 90 minute intensive, solve some.

Significant problems, not the, the hugest problems. Right. But they get to, on a body level, they get to experience the, they get to experience what it's like for you to help them solve a mini problem. So then they very easily can then commit if they're comfortable to a more macro problem. That's it. So that's 

Speaker 6: it.

Well, and I love your analogy of the dating thing there too. It's like, if you met somebody that you were attracted to and on that very first day that you met them, they were like, Hey, I really like you. Let's be boyfriend and girlfriend. Like, let's commit together. You'd be like, what? [00:38:00] Gimme something to look forward to.

Like, can we go on a first date? Can we like, you know, have some fun together, right? And to your, you go on a date, and then what happens after that first date? If it's a good fit and you had fun, you're like, can't wait for the second date. Right? And now you're excited about the second date. But if you jump right in to like, Hey, let's be boyfriend and girlfriend for the next six months, like right.

Ah, that feels like a lot. I don't know. Yeah. And, and the scheme is true in a sales conversation. Can we find a way to date a couple of times to where we're both looking forward to the next, and then it's easy to commit to something long term because now we both know we want it. 

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and not only that, that we don't, we not only want it, but we're really excited about it.

Right. That's what we want. I had a client the other day tell me that she went to bed feeling giddy about the, the possibility of us working together. And I just, I, that just delighted me. That's what I want people to feel giddy about it. Now, you don't want them to feel [00:39:00] like, Ooh, I'm nervous, or did I do the right thing?

Hopefully fingers, fingers crossed. Right? You don't want them to be in that position because. They're gonna show up with different energy too. Like they might be so worried about the investment that they've made, that they're gonna start looking for holes in what you're delivering and that nobody's going to win in that scenario at all.

Right. 

Speaker 6: Well, 'cause where's their focus too? Their focus isn't actually on the results that you're helping them create. They're in fear, they're scared, they're questioning their decision. They're looking for holes, to your point, and they're showing up different ener differently energetically. And then are you actually helping them with what you are meant to be helping them with?

So yeah, I think that's a really, really great point. 

Speaker 5: A lot of the coaches that I work with and consultants and service providers, they, they love the work they do. They're excited to get their messaging dialed in. [00:40:00] They're ready for a more compelling story that's gonna be really working for them to get them more clients.

But they hate the sales part of it all. They dread it, it makes them feel icky. Um, and it, and it might just be be because they don't feel they don't like selling, right? But it could also be around money mindset stuff. When I share that with you, like what comes to mind around how can we transform our mindset around this type of thing, where we're actually excited to get on these calls.

Speaker 6: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because we all claim to wanna be helpers of people. We care about people. We're good at what we're good at because. We enjoy it and we're good at it, and we wanna help others because maybe they don't wanna do it themselves or they're not as good at it. And then a little bit of discomfort gets inserted into the conversation and we're like, I feel sales, I feel pushy, [00:41:00] and we all of a sudden are like turning our back.

It's like, wait, aren't you the person who said you really cared about helping people? Like what? Until things get uncomfortable, and then because it's uncomfortable for you, you're gonna like turn the other way. To me, it's like if we really care about helping people, selling really is serving, and if we're not wanting to do it because it feels uncomfortable to us, then who are we making it about?

When people are like, I feel salesy. I'm like, how do you think that person feels who's in pain? Because they can't figure out how to do the thing that they need to do that you happen to be really good at. You could do easily or even in your sleep because you're so damn good at it and this person needs help with it because you are so uncomfortable with asking them if they need help.

You're not gonna ask 'em if they need help. And usually, to your point Kris it comes down to there's some discomfort around money. 'cause people are like, well, I would help people for free. Therein is our answer to what the hurdle is. There's a [00:42:00] money wonkiness there. And listen, money's the biggest story on the planet.

We all have our own wonky relationships and you know, in ways with it. But let's not let that be the reason that gets in the way of us helping people. And for the people who are like, well, I don't like taking people's money, then stop freaking taking their money. What do you mean taking their money?

You're not giving them any anything in return. There's nothing that you're showing up energetically exchanging for the exchange of their money. So they're giving you money for what? Because you're a con artist. Like what You know and people are No, no, no. I have then start seeing it like that. Then start seeing it like that.

And for the people that it's not valuable for quit begging for their validation. I think we get so caught up in not worrying about finding the right people. We're worrying about finding everybody and anybody. 'cause we've got lack and scarcity in our mindset. And the second that somebody tells us that they can't afford it, we make it about us.

We make it wrong. We make it this thing that like, oh, it feels uncomfortable asking. What if they're just not the right person? Because if somebody right now came [00:43:00] to me and they were like, Hey, I've got this $2,000 ticket to a NASCAR race, do you want it? I'd be like, no, I, I don't even think I'd take it for free.

I wouldn't. Not only would I not pay you $2,000 for it, I'm pretty darn unsure. I wouldn't take it for free unless John Mayer was sitting right next to me at the NASCAR race. I don't think that there's any value in that ticket for me, but there's plenty of people who would probably pay six for it, depending on the race.

I don't know enough about NASCAR to tell you what the races are, but that doesn't mean that that ticket isn't valuable. It just means I'm not the right person for the ticket. And I think we get too caught up in believing the wrong people for our stuff, what they're telling us about our stuff. We're believing feedback from people who it isn't actually even valuable for, instead of saying so hyperfocused on the people that, and, and this goes back to our original conversation, Kris who do you help and what problem do you solve for them?

Because if you're trying to help everybody with everything, you're helping nobody with anything. [00:44:00] And if anybody's questioning like that right now, let me ask you a question. If you are in the kitchen and you are cooking something and you need to open up a can, what tool are you looking for? The can opener.

The can opener. What are you not looking for? The Swiss Army knife. Ooh, you're not, because it doesn't stick in your mind that, Ooh, a Swiss army knife would be good. Could it do the job? Sure. But don't we want the thing that does the job the best? 

Speaker 5: I'm just laughing because this is so profound. This is such good learning, and I'm just so grateful that you're like using these beautiful metaphors that allow us to really understand this so tangibly.

So thank you. Yes. That's what we want. We want the damn can opener. 

Speaker 6: Gimme the thing that specializes in the very thing that I'm trying to do. Like if I need to [00:45:00] do my taxes, I'm not just trying to find somebody who knows spreadsheets and is good with numbers. Like I actually want a CPA who knows the laws, who's going to do it because they are the best at doing it and.

I think it's really easy to see in our own lives in areas of like, if your kid wanted to play soccer, would you just hire any coach or would you hire a soccer coach? 

Speaker 5: Right? 

Speaker 6: Right. When you start looking at that, it's like, oh, if, if I want a really good steak, am I gonna go to an Italian restaurant? No, I'm gonna go to a steak restaurant.

Right? So where are we selling ourselves Short. Literally, because we're trying to be the jack of all trades. We're trying to be the Swiss Army knife, and when you try to be everything to everybody, you end up being nothing to nobody because you're not known for the thing that you do really well. And you know, that can come from a lot of different places.

I would say it comes from lack, from scarcity, just from lack of knowledge and understanding of what you're actually doing when you run a business and you're helping a certain group of people with a certain problem that you help them solve. 

Speaker 5: What, tell me what you hear, because I hear [00:46:00] this a lot. Like clients are like, I really wanna be charging $5,000 for what I do.

I mean, what the problem I solve is really important. It hugely benefits them, but right now I'm charging, uh, 4 97 and even the 4 97 people aren't, aren't willing to buy. Like, I'm getting turned down a lot at the, even the lower rates. So how could I possibly increase my rates? 

Speaker 6: You can't, until you get around different people.

I, I would say that's probably one of the, and and again, we're not here to diagnose necessarily, but I would say that could potentially be part of it. Or maybe you're just not articulating your value, maybe you're not asking the right questions. You know, there, there's, it could be a lot of things, but I would say more than likely you're not talking to the right people who value it at $5,000.

If I went over to the Honda dealership and I was trying to sell $150,000 car, I'm probably [00:47:00] not gonna do a very good job to the customers that are walking into Honda, because they're a different type of customer. They're not wrong, they're not bad, they're not poor, there's nothing. But they are looking for a different type of solution.

Probably more practicality and functionality than maybe what $150,000 Mercedes might be. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: That doesn't mean the Mercedes isn't valuable. It doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people paying full price for Mercedes because they are. So if you're shopping around something to people who are looking in a very different way at a solution, and your solution maybe is higher touch, higher value, then are you talking to the right people?

That would be my first question. Do you know who the people that you serve are and what problem you help them with? Because the majority of the time, the people who want to sell a $5,000 product and are selling it or not selling it for 4 97, still have not gotten [00:48:00] complete clarity on who they help and how they help them.

Speaker 5: So let's get a little bit more tangible here for a minute. Um, when you get on a call with a potential client, or how do you coach your clients when they get on a call, how do they navigate that call? 

Speaker 6: Like if they're getting on a sales call, 

Speaker 5: if they're getting on a 

Speaker 6: sales call. So I have a template that, you know, happy to give away to anybody who's listening.

Um, it's nine steps. It's really simple. So I would recommend, first and foremost, if there's any conversation that you're getting into that you have a plan. The worst time to think about what you're gonna say is the moment you're saying it. So if you're waiting, here's what a lot of people do. They, they've got the hope, wish and pray method, and it's a method.

I can't say it's super effective, but that's one way to do it, the hope, wish, and pray. And they're like, well, I'm good at talking and I'm good at, you know, conversations and people like me. So it, it's literally like, I just hope they're there to say yes. It's pretty much, you know, what people are doing. So I would [00:49:00] first definitely have a plan, and that means you've gotta do the work before the work.

That means there's some pre-briefing that means that, you know, there's so many different things that we could look at, like, are you shooting for different levels of success? Do you have a plan for different ways that the conversation might go so that you're not making up on the spot? Like, I don't know, they just said this.

What do I do now? You've gotta think ahead of time, what might come up? What if they say no? What am I gonna be prepared for? What am I gonna have planned? What questions might I wanna ask to uncover the context that's gonna help all of us get more clarity in what would be the right decision. If you're not putting time and effort into that ahead of the conversation, then you're probably cutting yourself off from opportunity without even realizing.

If you put a little bit of time in and had a little bit of a more solid plan and some questions to ask, the conversation is gonna more likely go in your favor just because you did a pre-brief, you did the work before the work. So I would definitely have a plan. I would definitely make sure that like, regardless of what the outcome is, that you [00:50:00] have next steps in place so that you're in control of the conversation.

The person in control of the conversation is the person asking the questions. So I would have some questions prepared, and I think the most important, because those were a lot of tactical things just from a mindset and a really, really important point of view. Be unattached to the outcome. 

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 6: Like release any attachment to the outcome of the conversation.

Sure. You can. You can want to move forward, you can want to be able to help that person, but what the only outcome that I think we should ever attach to is reaching the point of the highest and best good for everybody on the conversation. Mm-hmm. And sometimes that's, yes, we move forward and sometimes that's, no, this isn't right, right now.

But ultimately that's the outcome that we want, is what's the best and highest good for everybody in this conversation. And that's the only thing I wanna attach to. Because if we get too attached to, I want them to say yes. I want them to say yes, we're making that about us. And if we get too attached to, well, I don't care.

They can say no. They can say [00:51:00] whatever. We don't wanna be careless about it. Ultimately, we wanna show up not attached to the outcome, ready to guide the call. We've done the work, we've planned our questions. We know different outcomes that might come up, and we're gonna show up confidently because we've done what we needed to do that day.

Whether it's move our body, take care of ourselves, fuel ourselves in the right way, so that we are at the highest expression of ourselves and feeling the best. 

Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. If you had a church I would attend. Yeah. Preaching. I love this so much. I, I really love, um, this idea and I, and I coach my clients in this way 'cause we definitely talk about how to navigate sales calls and I love taking the pressure off of them to do a lot of talking.

Right. It's if you should be the one asking questions and guiding the call, but the, the potential client is really the one doing all the talking. And I think often our potential [00:52:00] clients, they've been marinating in this problem for so long that. They've kind of gotten used to it. It's like that frog in boiling water.

And so it can be really powerful to ask the right questions that really remind them of the struggle and remind them of the frustrations that they have in their words. And, and back to what you said, you really get to uncover, like you allow them to uncover the reality of this situation. What, what they don't like, maybe some things that they do like, or what's important, where do they ultimately wanna be?

And not so much features and benefits of what you can offer them, but what do they want their life to look like after this problem is solved? Let's, as the guide of the call, remind them of what's possible. Because often, again, they've been maring in, in this problem. [00:53:00] Often they forget. They forget, number one, how annoying this problem is.

And they also forget at what around what's, they forget what's possible for them on the other side of this. And even just allowing them to r the room to really share and connect and uncover that for themselves or refresh that in their own mind allows them to get to that decision of, yes, this is really important for me to move forward.

Or No, it's not. Either way, it's, it's truly a win because like you said, it's what is best for all. What is best for them is what is best for you. And, and also I, I like, uh, going into these calls with also a mindset, mindset shift around. You are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing [00:54:00] you, right?

You need to make sure that they're the type of client that you wanna be pouring your heart into and, and truly helping. Do they, are they sharing things about themselves that, you know, you would be delighted to be working with them over a period of time so that that can also help shift the energy around how these calls feel?

Speaker 6: Yep. I think that's one of the most important pieces is you're not there to be chosen. Let's stop showing up as if we're auditioning. This isn't a one-sided conversation. You're not doing anything wrong by selling something. You're not hurting them by selling something. You're giving them an opportunity, uh, to, to refuse or to say yes.

And to your point, Kris people have normalized their pain. The frog in the hot water is a perfect example. They have normalized their pain and they have surrounded themselves with ways to justify and keep going through life. [00:55:00] And if we don't help them see the repercussions, the consequences to staying where they are, then why they don't have a reason to move.

So we do need to take them there and help them realize, Hey, like you've normalized this, but here's what's going on. And helping them move through the decision of whether this is the right time or not. Or maybe they're okay with staying where they are, but I think when we try to convince somebody because we're trying to get chosen or we're trying to make a sale again, we're making it about us.

We've gotta release the attachment to the outcome. And the idea, again, can you imagine going on a date and being like, I hope he chooses me. I hope he chooses me. Like, no, no, no, no. I'm here to choose. Also, this is a two-way street. We're gonna find out if this is best for both of us and that other person that you're gonna sell something to potentially.

Deserves to have the version of you that isn't just saying yes, 'cause you need the money, but because you legit, to your point Kris you're so excited about something that they said or some way that you know that your work is going to make their life better and [00:56:00] they deserve somebody who's just as, as excited about working with them as they are about working with you.

And that is when I believe the highest good happens is that energetic exchange. Both people are there 'cause they wanna be there, they're not there because they're poking holes or they're in fear. They're like, I wish I hadn't said yes. And you're not there because you're like, God, I just took this person 'cause I needed a client and I needed to pay my rent this month.

Like, no, we're all here on our highest good. We're here because this is the right and highest best for everybody. 

Speaker 5: Hmm. So beautiful. I wanna tell you about, um, when I initially developed and created my signature offer, I was charging a certain amount of money, um, and. I, I felt good charging that initially, um, because I was still feeling, feeling out like my process and my system and how is this gonna be working for everybody.

And over time I refined [00:57:00] it, refined it worked with more and more clients and I got to a point where I felt like the value that I was delivering was way beyond what I was charging. And I started to have this feeling of. Like, I was always delighted when I got a client, but I al, I al also felt like, oh, this is gonna be a lot of work.

Because I was, I was overdelivering and I was developing the offer in a way where I was, I knew how to continue to add more and more and more value. And so I got to this point where I decided to nearly double my rates and I did, and I got on my first sales call at the new rate. And Wow. Um, I was uncomfortable.

The gymnastics that I was doing the, uh, offering a [00:58:00] discount, throwing in more free things, validate, trying to validate this new price. And I, I share this because now that's the price. That you know of the offer, and it is truly an investment that they're making in their business. And I know through and through the value of it, I honestly think it's worth way more than, than, um, what it is right now.

But every time I get a client now, I'm like, yes, this feels good to me. I feel very compensated for the, the work that I'm doing and the value that I'm bringing. And I, I no longer do the gymnastics or have the discomfort, but I just wanna share like I. When you make these changes, um, whatever it is, when you're making changes in how you navigate your calls or how you price your services, it can feel very uncomfortable.

And it took me a handful of calls to [00:59:00] really show up with that same level of confidence that I had prior to the, the price change. And so I just share that because it's messy no matter who you are. And there's like this, when you stretch outta your comfort zone, it's always gonna feel a little funky. And that's totally, totally okay.

You can keep, keep going it going, keep going. And just know eventually three or four or more calls and you're gonna be, you're gonna be fine. 

Speaker 6: Yep. That's such a good point that you bring up. It's, it's. Uncomfortable. It's wonky. It, I would definitely encourage people to get some practice so that there's like low risk, high reward opportunities.

Like even now, I mean, I'm, I'm a sales coach. I teach people this. If I have a big conversation coming up, I have my friend, she and I do this for each other. Hey, when do you have time this week to do some role play? And you better believe I go through the entire conversation and she plays the part of the other person [01:00:00] and then I do the same for her.

Why would we leave it to chance in any other way? Like there wasn't a time as a basketball player that I did not have a practice or a scrimmage or something else before the game. So that I knew for a fact I was prepared. I had put myself to the test in so many different ways leading up to the game. Why are we not doing that with our important conversations?

So yeah, we wanna make sure, because especially when we're doing things like raising our prices, um, I remember years ago I. I was selling, I, I really wanted to leave my corporate job. And so my coach helped me come up with this plan and she was like, how many clients do you need to feel comfortable leaving?

And I said, 10. And she said, okay, then go get 10 clients. So I made this giant Post-it note that said 10 clients to Freedom. I had 10 blanks on it. And I sold my coaching packages for $2,500. I filled up 10 and like I think a month. And because I was very determined, I was very focused. That's the power of getting really intentional about something, right?

Specificity, like I knew these were the 10 and it was attached to my freedom. That's why I wrote it that way. It was 10 clients to freedom. And I knew once I got [01:01:00] those 10 clients, that I would let myself leave my job and give my notice. And my mindset coach was like, okay, now that you got those 10, like if you just sold 10 packages of 2,500, it's time for you to up your rates.

And I was like, what? But like I just got really good at doing this. Yeah. And then I did, and I sold five more immediately. 

Speaker 8: Wow. And 

Speaker 6: she said, okay, that's another sign. Like basically she was kind of, as I was going through, she's like, that's another sign. Supply and demand. It's basic business 1 0 1. Right, right.

Energetically, I still had to build myself up each time I did that. And that happened over a course of three months and I tripled my rates over those three months. But to your point, it was not easy. It was still uncomfortable. And fortunately I had some momentum built, which I would say there's a lot to be said for building momentum, being very clear on who you serve, how you serve them, building community, giving people a place to belong, and then building up the excitement around it.

And that doesn't mean that we still don't have to do our work. So here I was in the background building up my own ability to [01:02:00] show up and say the new price, which felt very scary. And to your point, it was like, let me just like throw a bunch of extra bonuses in there because I'm gonna prove that it's worth it.

Right. Them, they don't know the difference from one price or another. It's just, here's my price. Regardless of whether we're throwing a million bonuses in there or not. So it, it is still a challenge, but that's part of the reason why this is a skillset that we have to continually work on. 

Speaker 5: It's a muscle for sure.

And, and I think one of the greatest points that you just made was the power of having a coach. I would never have increased my rates had I not been working with a coach. And You too. 'cause we get comfortable there. We're like, this is fine. This is fine. Yeah. And people like it. Okay. Here I, but the coaching, like we have to have that when we are, when we're in our own business and we're trying to make changes, it's really hard when we don't have an outside guide or outside [01:03:00] perspective, we're in that bottle trying to read the label.

That can only be read from outside. And that is the importance of having a coach and also having the reassurance and the validation that it's okay to charge more. That it's worth it. Yep. It's valuable. We need, we just need that as humans, and I want that for every. Every, uh, self-employed person on the planet, we, we all need coaches.

So we, we are, uh, about to wrap up. Um, and I wanted to end our conversation with a quick story about a client that you've worked with and where did they come, where were they at when they came to you, and what did you change and what kind of results did they get? 

Speaker 6: Well, the one that popped in my mind was one that just happened last week.

Um, she's a private client of mine and she has been through some of my workshops over the last like year and a half and decided [01:04:00] to really do what we're talking about right now, get serious with herself, make an investment, and get out of her comfort zone. And she had had six months of just minimal sales and, and mostly dry spells.

And we started working together about four weeks ago. Last week she signed over six figures in contracts. Wow. Yeah. And in one week, and it wasn't by accident, she got very intentional. She's extremely coachable. She is very focused on what she knows, the areas that she knows that she has to improve. She does role play with me.

She writes her scripts out. She's just gotten so specific and focused and intentional in the areas that she knows that she has improvement and opportunity. And it wasn't, I mean, she sent me a message and she was like, oh my gosh, Nicole, I just signed over six figures in contracts this week. And I said, well, tell me what does it feel like?

First of all, what are you doing to [01:05:00] celebrate and what is different? And she said, hiring a coach. Just my energy, just in and of itself, investing in myself. Started to shift things in me. When we make investments in ourselves, we valued our ourselves at a higher level. We, we think of ourselves as, wow, I, I, I like myself that much.

I believe in myself that much, that I'm going to invest this much in myself. Like the belief that you have to have in yourself to make a decision like that should not go unmentioned. Like there's a lot to be said when we take a step like that, that immediately starts to shift even without like the specific tangible things that the coach is gonna teach you.

Mm-hmm. Just the act of making the investment and saying yes to yourself and saying yes to the support. Especially as women, we tend to deny ourselves what we actually need. And so that was her fir her number one thing. She said, you know, of course I'm focusing more on my conversations. I'm getting better at them, but just the act of saying yes and putting myself in a different energy, um, after six months of nothing, [01:06:00] six figures in contracts.

Speaker 5: Incredible, incredible. Nicole it has been such an epic hour with you. I can't even tell you it, it went by in like, felt like 15 minutes. Um, thank you so much for all the wisdom, all the fun, all the stories, all the metaphors. It was just such a tangible way to learn how to approach this differently and it's so relevant to all of us as service providers.

So thank you. Thank you. Where can people find you if they want more of? What? If they want more of the Church of Nicole 

Speaker 6: where can we find you? The Sales Church of Nicole I like it. That's the first time I've ever gotten that. Kris I'm gonna take and run with it. The Church of Nicole can be found on Instagram at the Nicole Kramer.

Um, and anybody who would like to have my Discovery Call template that I mentioned earlier, happy to share that with you. Just send me a DM and let me know that you heard, uh, Kris and i's conversation and, uh, be happy to share that with you and, and help you through anything else that's going on in your world.

Speaker 5: We will [01:07:00] definitely put that freebie in the show notes so you can see it down there too. So thank you so much. 

Speaker 6: Thank you, Kris

Kris: Is your website turning away Potential clients? I can help you turn that around. Book a moneymaking messaging call with me today and we'll transform your story into your most powerful sales tool. That's all for this episode of From Click to Client. Don't forget to subscribe and follow. I'm Chris Jones and I'll see you next time.